Guest Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 Some of you may have experienced this, but lately I have been getting hit with a different type of fraudulent orders. What the customer does is places their order (legally) with USPS as selected shipping method. After about two weeks after order status of 'shipped' the customer does a charge back, or claim through PayPal claiming they never received their merchandise. As you may know, USPS does not give tracking numbers unless you add the additional service, Delivery Confirmation, so there is no way to prove that they have really received their order to the credit card companies, or PayPal. I went out of my way to offer this service to my customers due to some of their lower rates and simply charge an additional $1.00 for taking the order to the post office. I totally overlooked the whole tracking number thing because it never crossed my mind someone would do something like this. What is even worse, alot of people that do this work in groups, so once they find out your site has the volnerability, they whole group of people will know. So in the end I decided to just eliminate USPS as a shipping methond and take my losses. Just a forewarning to anyone that doesn't require Delivery Confirmation. -Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrwrestling Posted November 26, 2003 Share Posted November 26, 2003 Thanks for the heads-up to the community Dave, sorry to hear about your loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizardsandwars Posted November 26, 2003 Share Posted November 26, 2003 Also, keep in mind that if you print your USPS lable online, or if you purchase a membership with someone like 'stamps.com' and print your lables with their software, delivery confirmation is free with 'Priority' shipping. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NOTE: As of Oct 2006, I'm not as active in this forum as I used to be, but I still work with osC quite a bit. If you have a question about any of my posts here, your best bet is to contact me though either Email or PM in my profile, and I'll be happy to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpf Posted November 26, 2003 Share Posted November 26, 2003 Sorry to hear about your loss! Welcome to the 'World of Mail Order'! People have been doing this for many decades. Offer USPS COD or USPS with automatic confirmation - but don't outright tell them - or put a good spin on it and say it "is a little bit of extra security to protect you, our customers, from fraud." - like in your TERM page. It might even boost it or make customers feal that your looking out for them. I personally don't mind paying a buck or so for this (and a bit more for insurance too) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrwrestling Posted November 26, 2003 Share Posted November 26, 2003 I personally don't mind paying a buck or so for this (and a bit more for insurance too) I totally agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 27, 2003 Share Posted November 27, 2003 If you print your label from USPS.com you get DC for free on priority. You can get sticky labels too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polaris Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Always use an online tracking service. You can purchase USPS Delievery Confirmation on each and every package mailed into US domestic address. First Class mail is a little bit different. Always insure your package. For international mail, since you can only insure parcel post & something else which I don't remember, I suggest use third party insurance service. For USPS insurance, use u-pic.com service. Cheap and easier to deal with. USPS's insurance claim take a long long period and if they pay. $900.00 for $1.23 is a fantastic deal for me. And you can insure anything goes international & domestic. For shipping lable, you can use endicia.com or stamps.com. Or you can download the USPS Shipping Assistance 2.2 (latest version), you can also use USPS web site's click&ship service. For all the extral cost, consider it as your business cost which used to protect youself and you can/should pass them onto your customer. Welcome to the dark side of e-commerce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmnt Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 fraud and the internet unfortunentaly come hand in hand. one way to avoid it in terms of credit however, is use a gateway provider who supports varified by visa and some other mastercard secure transaction method, it basically gives the customer an id and password, and they cannot place an order without this information. basically the old setup was if a dispute arose the credit card company debited your buisness and reimbursed the complainee regardless. from then on it was your responsibility to get the money back through the legal system, wich is extremely expensive and difficult when dealing with overseas fraudsters. ordinary customers however, can still use the service if they havnt applied to verified by visa, and if there was a dispute the money is debited from your bank or credit card company, because it is their responsibility to get their own customers to sign up to verified by visa, and you have done all thats required as a merchant. thats my understanding, if you think about it, if there was a dispute, the cardholder obviously breached his/her contract by telling someone the password, so legally they have no grounds to dispute. contact your bank and ask about gateway providers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizardsandwars Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 This is not true. Chargebacks using the new 'Verified by Visa' system are handled in exactly the same fashion as chargebacks not using the new system. The amount is deducted from your account automatically, and if you dispute the chargeback, you must do so in writing to the credit card company within 30 days. If you dispute the chargeback, they will ask for specific information regarding delivery, and the order, and they will investigate the transaction for you. If you have used AVS, Verified by Visa, or the cvv verification systems, this will ultimatly help your situation, however, the only disputes I have ever won is when I have proof of delivery to the cardholders billing address. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NOTE: As of Oct 2006, I'm not as active in this forum as I used to be, but I still work with osC quite a bit. If you have a question about any of my posts here, your best bet is to contact me though either Email or PM in my profile, and I'll be happy to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryK Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 however, the only disputes I have ever won is when I have proof of delivery to the cardholders billing address. I had a case recently where the billing and shipping addresses matched with the AVS system. Package was sent by trackable mail, and I had USPS confirmation that it had been delivered. The cardholder, however, claimed that they were not the one who placed the order, and that someone else could have easily picked up their mail. So, I lost. It's getting increasingly more difficult as a merchant to avoid being stung in the eCommerce world. Standard business practices are no longer enough to protect you. The only thing I take solace in is my firm belief in that age-old adage of "what goes around, comes around." :) TerryK Terry Kluytmans Contribs Installed: Purchase Without Account (PWA); Big Images, Product Availability, Description in Product Listing, Graphical Infobox, Header Tags Controller, Login Box, Option Type Feature, plus many layout changes & other mods of my own, like: Add order total to checkout_shipment Add order total to checkout_payment Add radio buttons at checkout_shipping (for backorder options, etc.) Duplicate Table Rate Shipping Module Better Product Review Flow * If at first you don't succeed, find out if there's a prize for the loser. * Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizardsandwars Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 Terry, I completly agree that it is becoming increasingly difficult to win a dispute. My point was to say that 'Verified by Visa' will not help you win a dispute easier, but it might help you reduce the number of disputes you have. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NOTE: As of Oct 2006, I'm not as active in this forum as I used to be, but I still work with osC quite a bit. If you have a question about any of my posts here, your best bet is to contact me though either Email or PM in my profile, and I'll be happy to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmnt Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Chargebacks using the new 'Verified by Visa' system are handled in exactly the same fashion as chargebacks not using the new system. The amount is deducted from your account automatically, and if you dispute the chargeback, you must do so in writing to the credit card company within 30 days. If you dispute the chargeback, they will ask for specific information regarding delivery, and the order, and they will investigate the transaction for you. If you have used AVS, Verified by Visa, or the cvv verification systems, this will ultimatly help your situation, however, the only disputes I have ever won is when I have proof of delivery to the cardholders billing address. really? well thats the story i was told by a gateway provider about a week ago, i was under the impression chargebacks are alot less likeley using the new system, and can be partley your banks responsibility. i was even given an example of one site losing in excess of 11mil, and after this new system its basically $0 loss. i knew it was to good to be true.. best bet is to steer away from credit especially if your dealing with expensive orders...arrange another method. well thats my philosophy. :) ps. thanks for the heads up! bloody gateways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s_mack Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 This brings me back to a point I feel I'm constantly making in vein... insurance is for YOU (the shipper) not for the customer! Is so common for merchants to "recommend" insurance to the customer and in fact charge for it... but who does it protect? Think about it! Some of what you described above is NOT fraud... its lost mail. I myself have come home several times to have a delivery-confirmation-required package at my door or at my neighbour's and I never signed for it. They may deliver in rain sleet and snow... but they make mistakes my friend. Fraud or not... if the "customer" claims they never got it they get to charge back, right? Well... if YOU have insurance on the package, and they never got it... then you have a claim and will get reimbursed. And probably for more than the item was worth if you were smart ;) Insurance is NOT for the customer. YOU purchase it from the carrier, YOU have to make a claim on it, and YOU collect. So buy insurance for yourself! (and for Pete's sake stop charging the customer for it). That's my 2 cents (plus $1.10 for insurance) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polaris Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 Yes insurance is for the merchant essentially. How will you not charge customer for it? If you build it into your item's price, isn't this "charge customer insurance money"? The point is always insure your package. And charge your customer for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devosc Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 I'd just like to mention here that recently I made an online purchase and in signing up and making subsequent purchases one 'must' also provide the telephone number on the back of the credit card and that the delivery address must also be registered with that credit card company (the customer must then nofity the cc company of any other acceptable addresses). "Any fool can know. The point is to understand." -- Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s_mack Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 How will you not charge customer for it? If you build it into your item's price, isn't this "charge customer insurance money"? Yeah, I suppose... it depends on the way you look at your pricing. I mean, do you charge your customer for the doughnut you decide to eat on the way to the office? Well.. sort of. Like the doughnut, I view insurance as a necessary cost of doing business. But unlike the doughnut, it is directly atributable to a specific sale (usually) so you're right. What I really meant was that I personally (as a customer) find it quite rediculous that I have to pay *extra* for it... even though its really the same either way. I guess its more that I don't like how merchants treat it like they're doing me a favor. Anyway.. no sense in arguing it... I think we're on the same page with the big picture - the rest is just symantics (sp?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s_mack Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 I'd just like to mention here that recently I made an online purchase and in signing up and making subsequent purchases one 'must' also provide the telephone number on the back of the credit card and that the delivery address must also be registered with that credit card company (the customer must then nofity the cc company of any other acceptable addresses). The real big problem with this method of "validating" a customer is that it really only applies in the United States. Canadian privacy laws, for example, prohibit the credit card company from cooperating with the payment gateway to match up addresses, so services like 2checkout sometimes warn the merchant of fraud when there is no such worry. Does this mean you don't do business with Canadians? Well, considering they have a far lower instance of credit card fraud than other countries you'd be missing out on business for no reason. At least that sounds right, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 Sorry to hear about your loss. What you could do to cut down the fraud is insist on a landline number and not a mobile/cell phone. You can call that number and ask to speak to the person that made the order. Ask some simple questions about the payment card used ie. last 3 digits on the back, no. products ordered etc.... Just be aware of any hesitation in the 'customers' response. At least you will not only have a record of that conversation and it will be alot harder for the fraudster to claim a chargeback but you could also check the number with the phone company. Hope this helps! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 By making sure, that the CVV is valid, make the customer enter that with the credit card #, do not ship anything out of your country, etc . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLKeenan Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 I would think just adding the extra $2 automatically as a Handling fee and using that money to pay for the tracking would do the trick.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detsouvalas Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 [...] do not ship anything out of your country, etc . . . Well, if I can't ship out of my own country, I really don't see a reason for making e-commerce, a "normal" shop would be enough!! Antonios Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 I always ship UPS so that I have proof of receipt. It costs a little bit more for the customer but I then know for sure. I even pay for a signature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lavarock Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 I have begun using USPS's "Click and Ship". They create shipping labels for you - including postage and there is FREE delivery Confirmation. You also have the option of sending the customer a tracking number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 Well, if I can't ship out of my own country, I really don't see a reason for making e-commerce, a "normal" shop would be enough!! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Really? Unless you live in a very small country like Luxemburg, I would say this isn't the case. I only ship within the United States. That is quite a large sphere of influence. That gives me access to a potential of 290 Million people and covers 3,537,441 square miles. From my location to New York City is in excess of 3,000 miles in a straight line. For a physical shop, my sphere of influence is an area of 20 miles in diameter (~314 square miles) or less and there are only about 350,000 - 400,000 people. Even with a normal shop, you can provide many conveniences to your customers such as online ordering and instore pickup, loyal customer sales, special orders, additional products that you don't have floor space for and can be dropshipped from a vendor and much more. I would hazard a guess that it is difficult for many small businesses, especially those only online, to handle even 5,000 customers a month without significant overhead costs associated with staffing and warehousing. This means most countries would give a decent sphere of influence without incurring large costs and reducing stress and income loss due to fraud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElLeonBlanco Posted October 19, 2004 Share Posted October 19, 2004 Really? Unless you live in a very small country like Luxemburg, I would say this isn't the case. I only ship within the United States. That is quite a large sphere of influence. That gives me access to a potential of 290 Million people and covers 3,537,441 square miles. From my location to New York City is in excess of 3,000 miles in a straight line. For a physical shop, my sphere of influence is an area of 20 miles in diameter (~314 square miles) or less and there are only about 350,000 - 400,000 people. Even with a normal shop, you can provide many conveniences to your customers such as online ordering and instore pickup, loyal customer sales, special orders, additional products that you don't have floor space for and can be dropshipped from a vendor and much more. I would hazard a guess that it is difficult for many small businesses, especially those only online, to handle even 5,000 customers a month without significant overhead costs associated with staffing and warehousing. This means most countries would give a decent sphere of influence without incurring large costs and reducing stress and income loss due to fraud. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Aren't you the lucky one! Ship from outside the USA to the USA. Do you know what that means??? Want a chargeback... ship something to the USA. If you are a foreign merchant you have absolutley NO recourse with the credit card companies. One client I have has an average order over $250.00 and he has a very difficult time because all JOE TRAILERPARK has to do is order some very expensive items... wait for them to arrive... and then call the credit card company and deny he ever ordered it. When you contact the credit card agency "ie. WORLDPAY" they ask for a pile of documents to prove it. You send copies of the order, the transaction, and even where JOE TRAILERPARK signed for the order at his billing address and they still find in favor of the consumer. You are out not only your product and shipping but it raises your chargeback percentage and with most of them if you go over 1% in chargebacks they suspend your account. So you end up a total loser because now your money from other orders in thier accounts is tied up for at least 6 months. If you get it back then. There need to be some changes made in the credit card system so merchants quit being the ones punished for the fraudulent practices of the cardholders. ElLeonBlanco "The man of genius makes no mistakes. His errors are volitional and are the portals of discovery." James Joyce (1882?1941) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New 
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.