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osCommerce

The e-commerce.

man this place has really gone straight to hell


dreamscape

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It seems the only posts anymore are ones where people nit-pick over the dumbest little things, or things that do not even concern them in the 1st place. The quality of these forums has really shot straight to hell.

 

Nobody really seems to care to help others anymore. All everyone cares about is who violated what rule and how many times we should punch them in face for it.

 

And most of those that did actually care about these forums and OsCommerce now post very little, and I am afraid I shall join them.

 

So with that I shall be posting very little, if even at all. Perhaps when everyone decides to stop being vultures and join the rest of the human race, I shall be inclined to post more. But at this point that seems unlikely, and the future of these OSC forums looks very grim.

The only thing necessary for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing

- Edmund Burke

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Don't worry, due to personal problems I'm outta here for at least a couple of weeks.

 

If you leave because of others, then they win..... and everyone else loses.

 

I was probably out of line, and my current state of mind can be to blame...

 

But others are not blameless either...

 

Off on hiatus.... fight without me

[no external urls in signatures please, kthanks]

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Don't worry, due to personal problems I'm outta here for at least a couple of weeks.  

 

If you leave because of others, then they win..... and everyone else loses.  

 

I was probably out of line, and my current state of mind can be to blame...  

 

But others are not blameless either...  

 

Off on hiatus.... fight without me

 

Loxly,

 

i really don`t feel that you have been out of line you have been extremely helpful to many users. As to the some of the "battles" that have been present on the forum, really we need to make sure forum members follow certain guidelines ie searching b4 asking, not using forum as an ad board etc. I think that you have been as diplomatic as possible. I hop everthing works out well for you and i look forward to your return.

 

-Kevin

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Thanks for the vote of confidence. I have some very complication personal issues to deal with the next couple of weeks, so will be backing off......

 

I'll be back ....

 

In the meantime everyone needs to realize that we are all here to help, but some people are abusing a community of volunteers to accomplish their own goals. And if that is allowed to continue there won't be a community at all.

 

With that I don't have anything else to add... Those that don't care won't listen anyway, those that do care, don't need to be told.

[no external urls in signatures please, kthanks]

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What are your thoughts on improving the situation?

 

What needs to be done?

 

Harald I really don't know.

 

All I know is that this was a much more pleasant and welcoming community a few months ago than it is now. I am sure you will find I am not alone in my opinions. I have spoken to some others and they feel the same way too.

 

It just seems that everyone is way too hung up the rules. They care more about pointing out rules people broke, rather than trying to help them or give advise.

 

I thought it was the moderators job to make sure the rules are generally followed and make corrections if need be. That's what they're here for, right? But latetly it seems alot of people are taking on that job, and in my opinion it is not their place to; that is what the moderators are for. For whatever purpose, a personal "follow the rules" war has been waged against virtually every person and newcomer to the forums. Again I don't have a problem with moderators correcting users when needed; that is their job, but no one else's. I don't have time to sit here and read all the "you can't do this", "you just broke this rule", "you can't post that" propiganda from these self-righteous individuals. Life is too short for that. This is supposed to be a community where we help each other and give back if we can. A person does not learn to be giving by determining the needs of other.

 

So I think the situation could be made alot better if people would just let the moderating to the moderators, or rewind time back 3 months or so if you happen to have a time machine :wink:

The only thing necessary for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing

- Edmund Burke

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Improving the search function would be a big help. :)

 

So often there are exchanges like:-

'Search before you ask'

'I did search for hours but found nothing'

 

Better ways to link in with the core code would also help greatly now we have so many contributions the effort in keeping them all up-to-date has become immense not just for the contributors themselves but also for users. MS1 has helped enormously here but still some contributions are made for non-standard releases. Threads quickly become out-of-date.

 

As regards advertising, I suggest providing a properly organised place where people can advertise their services whilst at the same time being tough on those who abuse the forums

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Improving the search function would be a big help.
I think if the search defaulted to AND between the words like Google does it would help a lot.

 

I think it would help if there were a few more moderators or official rule inforcers. I think it would help with the "Why are you bugging me?" feeling that people get when they are hassled about the rules. Imagine the reaction you would have if another driver pulled you over to complain about your driving. When someone official complains it seems more appropriate and like they are just doing their job.

In olden times the men were made of iron and the ships were made of wood; now it's the other way around. :wink:

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It just seems that everyone is way too hung up the rules. They care more about pointing out rules people broke, rather than trying to help them or give advise.

 

It's the Believers thread I tell you! 8) I think deleting it is now long overdue ;)

 

Seriously now, I think when users point out the mistakes of others it is generally a good thing as the person who made the mistake will know how strong and secure the community spirit is.

 

The only thing thats worrisome there is the attitude behind the two people involved.

 

Bringing in new moderators is always welcome (who wants to suggest a person?) - however the attitudes will more than likely stay the same. Keeping a cool attitude is not something that a to-be-moderator should be told to do, but has been doing it all along due to common ethical sense.

:heart:, osCommerce

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What are your thoughts on improving the situation?

 

What needs to be done?

 

#1 - moderators. Maybe one for each forum? or a few for the whole forums. Need moderators that are willing to volunteer their time here, keep cool heads, and are able to diffuse situations.

 

Mods need the ability to delete threads that dont belong (advertisements), or ban people as necessary who continue to abuse the rules.

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Seriously now, I think when users point out the mistakes of others it is generally a good thing as the person who made the mistake will know how strong and secure the community spirit is.

 

at one time I would have agreed with you here, but it has become more than just a friendly pointing out of mistakes, like "<useful thread reply here.>.. oh, by the way, this *may* break one of the forum rules, so please remember that in the future." or "<useful thread reply here.>... P.S. I know the forum search function is not that great, so here are some tips to get a better search next time."

 

No, instead I mostly see things like "You ***hole! Why did you post that. *****" or "Read the rules. Search before you ask ****" Replies like that provide nothing useful, other than whatever sick gratification the mod-wanna-be's get out of slamming others all the time.

The only thing necessary for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing

- Edmund Burke

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the person who made the mistake will know how strong and secure the community spirit is.

 

The person who made the mistake gets the wrong impression. Alot of times they get the impression that this is a horrible community and never come back. And I don't blame them. I have seen many good people leave the forums and not look back because of the way either they were treated or the way they saw other being treated, and they did not wish to have the same happen to them.

 

Harald, I am not criticising you. You have built a great community here, but lately it is like a shadow has fallen over it. Something is seriously wrong when people are afraid to post here. Afraid of being riduculed or treated as inferiors. Soemthing is seriously wrong when people hate coming here. Hate the forums because of all the bashing that goes on anymore. Something is seriously wrong here.

The only thing necessary for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing

- Edmund Burke

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thank you for illustrating my point Ron. I expected nothing more from someone like you.

The only thing necessary for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing

- Edmund Burke

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Personally, I am with Dreamscape.

 

On one side there is too much authority here and people don't understand the meaning of leeway and don't even evaluate things.

 

On the other hand, the rules are not plainly laid out, you have to first visit every forum and look for rules and then apply them to every forum even if they are forum specific. For example in the My Store forum, you can not ask for opinions if your store doesn't include "Powered By osCOMMERCE". That is fine but if someone asks for help with a installation problem in the installs forum or someone asks for opinions on the best OSC driven sites in General Chat, they get jumped all over because they don't have the "Powered By" line. Either allow people to remove per the copyright and license agreement or not. Don't say one thing and force them to do otherwise. That is very unprofessional.

 

Second, the code is released under th GPL, yet the development team wants to control every single aspect of the project. GPL gives me the right to distribute OSC how I please, when I please and where I please. It gives me the right to start a website linking all the OSC powered websites together if I so please, it gives me the right to start my own OSC support site if I so choose. GPL gives me the right to do whatever I so choose with the software. However the way this site is run, suggests the software is not GPL. Either develop your own license or come in line with the GPL.

 

Next there is the constant ranting about donations. Donations by their very nature are voluntary. If you expect people to pay you for your time and effort, then charge them for such and drop the GPL farce.

 

Finally, have some compassion. I would be more involved with this community if people like Mattice and rseigel showed a little respect for the customers of OSCommerce. The only reason that anyone even puts up with their condescending attitudes is because this software is free. If you charged for it, there would a lot fewer stores in the live sites section. The fact that the developers are hardly around doesn't help either nor are the people listed as providing support. When they are more often then not it appears as they are treating people like dirt instead of respect. As such, I lurk here by visiting occasionally and hardly ever post. My time, knowledge and any information I might have are better spent elsewhere. If I have any questions about this software, it is more valuable to me to get the answers elsewhere. If it doesn't work the way I think it should, it is quicker and easier to me to simply rewrite it than to even bother asking questions here and get treated like I am not human.

 

I bet if you treated people with respect and dignity and treated them like customers, not only would donations increase but this place would be a much happier place.

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Ohhhh....I was just having some fun Harald. Don't get yer britches in a wad. (I can handle sarcasm without taking it personally unlike some others around here). :P

 

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a forum anywhere that doesn't get a tad hairy at times. That's called human nature. I think all-in-all though you've created a community that's 100x better than most. Newbies need to understand that things are not always going to be easy (welcome to the wonderful world of business...duh! :wink: ).

 

I totally disagree that this forum is not easy to search though. Of course you need to know what you're searching for (not always easy for a newb).

 

Wiki is a step in the right direction but the bigger it gets the more newbs you'll have saying: "I don't want to read all that! :shock:" Such is life. :wink:

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Personally, I am with Dreamscape.

 

And a little more :)

 

On one side there is too much authority here and people don't understand the meaning of leeway and don't even evaluate things.

 

On the other hand, the rules are not plainly laid out, you have to first visit every forum and look for rules and then apply them to every forum even if they are forum specific. For example in the My Store forum, you can not ask for opinions if your store doesn't include "Powered By osCOMMERCE". That is fine but if someone asks for help with a installation problem in the installs forum or someone asks for opinions on the best OSC driven sites in General Chat, they get jumped all over because they don't have the "Powered By" line. Either allow people to remove per the copyright and license agreement or not. Don't say one thing and force them to do otherwise. That is very unprofessional.

 

Agreed, will be looked into.

 

Second, the code is released under th GPL, yet the development team wants to control every single aspect of the project. GPL gives me the right to distribute OSC how I please, when I please and where I please. It gives me the right to start a website linking all the OSC powered websites together if I so please, it gives me the right to start my own OSC support site if I so choose. GPL gives me the right to do whatever I so choose with the software. However the way this site is run, suggests the software is not GPL. Either develop your own license or come in line with the GPL.

 

We are not controlling osCommerce the solution, we are controlling osCommerce the name.

 

You can do whatever you want per the GPL license with osCommerce, just do it with another name :D (also per the GPL license)

 

osCommerce is a brand name we are protecting.

:heart:, osCommerce

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On the other hand, the rules are not plainly laid out
A clarification on what is considered prohited commercial advertising would be nice. From what I have been able to pickup:

1) Recommending editors and tools like BeyondCompare, etc is OK.

2) Recommending hosting companies is not OK.

3) Linking to your osCommerce store is OK. I think it should be too.

4) Linking to my consulting business's web site which has nothing to do with osCommerce, web design, E-commerce, or anything like that is marginal and considered bad form in a signature.

 

I have no opinions any more on how the rules on any of these should be (except 3), but if it were more clear, it would reduce the number of people getting reamed about the rules in these areas.

 

I would like to see one new rule, which is that your username can't be something off color, like ohcumon.

In olden times the men were made of iron and the ships were made of wood; now it's the other way around. :wink:

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Harald,

 

I tend to agree with Deborah, and I know you have had conversations with Linda, and I have sent you some notes on the situation.

 

There are plenty of people who are willing to help and have consistently been of service. There are also people who consistently do nothing to add to a conversation but simply add fuel to the fire. And there are people who seem to delight in starting arguments.

 

The rules are the rules, and as long as they are applied consistently across the board, then there is really nothing more to be said about them other than follow them or don't participate.

 

Some people know better, and some people have previously been warned about inappropriate behavior, yet they continue to do what they have been warned not to.

 

So what is to be done? Do we ban them? Do we mark them? Do we change their permissions to read only?

 

Its a difficult call to make, but it is comething that needs to be done.

 

just my thoughts

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After the debacle over the past few months, with regards;

 

1) editing/moving of posts and then giving BS about the reasons for doing so

2) certain people being allowed to carry URLs in their signatures

3) the number of self-appointed OscKops

4) The response from HPDL in one of the "My Store" threads

5) The lack of response from emails/PMs to the Core Team (and then getting the stock answer "we get 100s of emails daily)

6) Receiving email from <unknown> regarding not showing "copyright oscommerce" on a site

7) People defacing others sites who they feel have wronged Oscommerce

 

No-one is perfect and no-one is expected to be, but there are a select few (including some in the Core Team) who consistently amaze and dissappoint me.

 

I've pretty much given up posting within these Forums (down to maybe a post a day average), and really don't believe that Oscommerce is going the right way. To the casual observer, it seems that the strict control over what Oscommerce can do, be used for, what other sites can be set up etc will lead to Oscommerce becoming not Open Source anymore.

 

There are at least two Core Team members who run sites that deal exclusively with Oscommerce - and yet when someone else sets up such a site, they are universally panned and told that it should all be done "in house".

 

I could go on, but I have a site to build...

 

ps, no offence intended re the above points. If you don't like what you read within this whole thread, then you know you are being spoke about.

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All input from people who have knowledge of oscommerce and how to make it work is welcome from anyone with that knowledge to share. However, Gary, your comments sound like they are coming from someone who is burned out from helping and chooses not to for the time being. No one says you have to be here and you have to help.

 

Yes, I am part of the lastest so called debacle, but you know what? I have also spent a great deal more time than I should have helping other new people and not-so-new people on these boards. You don't know how many PM's ANY of us get and answer. What you see on the boards is a small percentage of the private help that is asked for and given. And should we let a post go totally unanwered if we don't have time for a detailed explanation yet again of a common question? Isn't a brief, go search on such-and-such better than nothing? Many people really haven't looked in that upper right had corner and really don't know that search button is there until it is pointed out to them. That isn't rude, that's HELPFUL.

 

And cross-posting in ANY forum, not jus ton this site, IS rude.

 

Consistently negative attitude doesn't do anyone any good, so if you need a break, take one. If you have an idea to build a better breadbox, no one is stopping you. You just can't call it osCommerce. You can call it Gary's Great New eCommerce solution.

 

Replace negative comments with constructive, positive solutions and many problems *POOF* go away.

 

(I disagree that the rules are unclear, only those that don't want to understand them seem to be the ones that find them unclear)

[no external urls in signatures please, kthanks]

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I would like to see signatures removed altogether (or limited to one line).

 

Maybe I exagerate but I seem to have seen one line answers followed by half a page of poems (which get boring after you have read them 500 times), requests for donations, portfolio of websites etc.

There are places in the user profiles for this information. It doesn't need to be included with every message.

 

When it comes down to it though, it is all about attitude. As the community has grown some people have a bad attitude and the larger the community grows, the harder this behaviour is to control - hence the need at this stage for clearer rules and enforrcement.

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Deborah (of Loxly - my own fantasy kingdom)

 

I actually made a bet with someone that *you* would be the one to respond directly to my post. He now owes me a beer. Thanks for winning the bet for me :) Ahhh, lovely.

 

How I love OscKops.

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