New section in the forum for commercial postings

[greree]

Isn't that your purpose for being here? The desire to make money.

Of course it is. I never said otherwise.

 

to criticize someone because they want to make money on a support site for ecommerce software is pretty hypocritic.

I'm not criticizing him because he wants to make money. I'm criticizing him because his statements implied that he wants to open up this forum to spammers for the good of open source and osCommerce. That isn't true. He wants to advertise so he can make money. First he ignores the FAQ/Rules and spams repeatedly, even when warned a number of times not to. When he saw that all his spams were being edited by Linda, he changed tactics. Now he's trying to gain sympathy in an effort to persuade the team members to change the policy. I don't like this.

[greree]

Come on Greg don't get like that

Why not? You got like that. Now you're trying to play the good guy.

 

I contributed a module for which many people have sent thanks and I also help people for free in other places.

So have I. So have most people on this forum. That doesn't make you special.

 

I already apologized for that one post that was spam, the others are kind of a gray area if you ask me.

Apologize, then change tactics.

 

But anyway forget about me and my "hidden motives"

You quote "hidden motives" as if I had said that. Please point this out. Your motives are anything but hidden. And I don't think I'll forget about it, since that's your primary motive.

 

look at the issue at hand and look at the big picture.

The issue at hand is whether or not anyone agrees with you. The big picture is allowing commercial posts in this forum, which I disagee with. If spam is allowed pretty soon I'll start getting private messages asking me if I want to enlarge my breasts.

 

You're quite the manipulator. Pretty soon people will start thinking this is actually a discussion to decide if commercial posts will be allowed. Save yourself some time, and send a message to Harald asking him about it.

[alonsoac]

< Pretty soon people will start thinking this is

< actually a discussion to decide if commercial posts will be allowed.

 

I tried to make it a discussion about how to handle the need for commercial exchanges, but you and your off-topic posts ruined it.

 

I don't understand why you took it on me personally since I only posted one spam comment and I did apologize for it. I honestly forgot about the rule and was so embarrased when Linda pointed it out to me that I asked her to remove my comment so I wouldn't look like a fool or a spammer.

 

I don't care that you attacked me in that way, why should I? But you did ruin my intent to create an intelligent discussion and made me waste my time. You sir are a disgrace to this community and shouldn't be posting in these forums.

[greree]

I don't understand why you took it on me personally

Two reasons. One, I could see that you're a manipulator and you were trying to gain support in your efforts to add spam to this forum. Since I don't want that to happen, I did what I could to squash your efforts. Don't take it personally.

 

Two, when I get to 300 posts I'll earn the label "Believer", so I take advantage of any thread that allows me to post multiple times.

 

since I only posted one spam comment

No, you posted at least 6. I did a quick count. I might have missed a few.

 

See, you're trying to manipulate the argument again. In an earlier post you admit to making multiple spam posts, then you say it was really only one, that the rest were in a "gray area". Now you say that there was only one. You lied to manipulate the argument in your favor. You did that a number of times. I don't like people who do that. It shows a lack of integrity.

 

I honestly forgot about the rule and was so embarrased when Linda pointed it out to me that I asked her to remove my comment so I wouldn't look like a fool or a spammer.

That's not what Linda said. She said she edited a number of your posts and sent you at least two private messages, which you ignored. Why do you say stuff like that? I can easily go back and read earlier posts to verify what you say.

 

You sir are a disgrace to this community and shouldn't be posting in these forums.

Any time you want to create an intelligent discussion about whether or not I should post, feel free to do so. Just don't spam when you do it.

[loxly]

< Pretty soon people will start thinking this is

< actually a discussion to decide if commercial posts will be allowed.

 

I tried to make it a discussion about how to handle the need for commercial exchanges, but you and your off-topic posts ruined it.

 

I don't understand why you took it on me personally since I only posted one spam comment and I did apologize for it. I honestly forgot about the rule and was so embarrased when Linda pointed it out to me that I asked her to remove my comment so I wouldn't look like a fool or a spammer.  

 

I don't care that you attacked me in that way, why should I? But you did ruin my intent to create an intelligent discussion and made me waste my time. You sir are a disgrace to this community and shouldn't be posting in these forums.

 

Intelligent discussion:

 

This is a forum that is a support site for a specific software application. Most of the people that find solutions to problems that are posted by forum members add their solutions to the Contributions section of the site, AT NO CHARGE to the community.

 

Most of the people using this software, and this forum, are people who have been DISAPPOINTED by commercial, high priced applications in the past and are not excited to be told that they need to use yours or anybody elses commercial application.

 

A commercial section on these forums would take up space and bandwidth, that SOMEONE, not YOU, is paying for. That space and bandwidth is better utilized by the current sections of the forum.

 

QUESTIONS FOR YOU:

 

Do you have an osCommerce store set up? What is the url?

 

Have you used the osCommerce freely available affiliate program?

 

If you do not or have not or don't plan to, then you probably don't know what we have, what we want and what we need.

 

Have you visited forums for other free affiliate programs and posted your services to their forums also?

 

How long have you been reading the osC forums? Long enough to know what we need?

 

CONCLUSION:

 

This is a place where people help people. When and if a person needs help that they think they should pay for, they can post a message asking for help and would expect a private reply.

 

No, I do not think we need a section for people to advertise their services. Most of us found osC by searching the web. We can find other services that way too.

 

There is a section for people with osCommerce stores to have their stores and sites listed, so perhaps you can set up a store and place it in the Live Shops section.

[Harald Ponce de Leon]

A commercial forum for only advertising commercial services will more than likely never happen here.

 

If you have serious services to offer then think about sponsoring the project.

[burt]

I believe a commercial area would be beneficial to the members of the community as per the post by Wayne earlier on in the thread.

 

If you limit posting access to members with (say) 200 or more posts (I'm unsure if you can do this with phpbb, but a simple .sql would do the trick if you cannot), then you are highly unlikely to get inundated with Spam.

 

How many times do we see "I need help installing - $$$ paid". That would stop all that. A simple look in the "commercial forum" and they have a name they can contact.

 

I'm unsure why, but it appears many people think that Open Source means "free of payment". It doesn't, it never has, and it never will.

 

Slightly O/T: This "no commercial" rule is a bit extreme. Example, (I think last night) I saw someone post a list of tools the webdevelopers use, who then stated that he (or she) wouldn't post paid for tools (eg Frontpage, Dreamweaver etc) as that would be deemed commercial! Lets get some perspective here.

 

Look at the top right corner of this page. Commercial Advert. I understand they are sponsoring (and hosting) the Forums etc, but it still goes against the "commercial" rule. There are many more "official" links to commercialism on the site also...

 

Really to be taken seriously, should it not be one rule for all ? Feel free to flame as necessary, we need a bit of debate in here.

[Harald Ponce de Leon]

I believe a commercial area would be beneficial to the members of the community as per the post by Wayne earlier on in the thread.

 

Why can't these companies sponsor the project?

 

That is much better than being listed on a forum where, 20 advertisements later, they are no longer on the same page. What will this resort to? Every company will be scrambling just to be on the first page.

 

How many times do we see "I need help installing - $$$ paid".  That would stop all that.  A simple look in the "commercial forum" and they have a name they can contact.

 

Yes, instead we will have posts like "Is Company A better than B, C, D, or E?"

 

When a business sponsors the project, people will know they are serious in their services - which is at the level of where trust begins.

 

I'm unsure why, but it appears many people think that Open Source means "free of payment".  It doesn't, it never has, and it never will.

 

Right.

 

It angers me though when businesses think they have the right to spam in the forums only so they can make a quick buck.

 

What does that say about the company who is breaking the forum rules?

 

Slightly O/T:  This "no commercial" rule is a bit extreme.  Example, (I think last night) I saw someone post a list of tools the webdevelopers use, who then stated that he (or she) wouldn't post paid for tools (eg Frontpage, Dreamweaver etc) as that would be deemed commercial!  Lets get some perspective here.

 

In that case it is extreme.

 

Look at the top right corner of this page.  Commercial Advert.  I understand they are sponsoring (and hosting) the Forums etc, but it still goes against the "commercial" rule.

 

It's not going against the forum rules - never have they spammed the forums with their services, nor have they spammed user inboxes.

 

Pair, in this example, are not here to make a quick buck, but to offer serious services with a high level of quality behind it.

 

There are many more "official" links to commercialism on the site also...

 

The Gateways page? Is this really an issue?

 

The Team page? What, you don't trust our services? It's not fair that every company is listed here?

 

Do something for the project and it might be :)

 

Really to be taken seriously, should it not be one rule for all ?  Feel free to flame as necessary, we need a bit of debate in here.

 

Those companies who are serious about their services can sponsor the project. Those looking for services will see that this company is serious, and everyone can be happy.

 

Not only will the customers receive a great service, but it also keeps the osCommerce name strong.

[burt]

I believe a commercial area would be beneficial to the members of the community as per the post by Wayne earlier on in the thread.

 

Why can't these companies sponsor the project?

 

Because individuals who might want to help out others (for payment) probably could not afford to sponsor the project, or could not give services to the project (eg free hosting or whatever) as they don't provide it!

 

 

 

It angers me though when businesses think they have the right to spam in the forums only so they can make a quick buck.

 

What does that say about the company who is breaking the forum rules?

I agree 100%. I had a post edited the other day, as I wasn't thinking and asked people to PM me if interested. My bad, genuine error - I've not spammed before, now I'm a bad person ;)

 

 

 

Look at the top right corner of this page.  Commercial Advert.  I understand they are sponsoring (and hosting) the Forums etc, but it still goes against the "commercial" rule.

 

It's not going against the forum rules - never have they spammed the forums with their services, nor have they spammed user inboxes.

 

Pair, in this example, are not here to make a quick buck, but to offer serious services with a high level of quality behind it.

 

But taking this the logical step further - many companies/individuals in here have also never spammed the forums or inboxes, and are not here to make a quick buck...the difference is that Pair have sponsored the project. But where are they when a user needs help on the Forum ? Do they contribute to the *community* - of course not, they are out to make a $/?/Eur or two.

 

There are many more "official" links to commercialism on the site also...

 

The Gateways page? Is this really an issue?

 

The Team page? What, you don't trust our services? It's not fair that every company is listed here?

 

Do something for the project and it might be :)

 

Actually I wasn't thinking of those pages, more the example shops!

[burt]

ps, I've emailed about sponsoring the Project :)

[Harald Ponce de Leon]

Because individuals who might want to help out others (for payment) probably could not afford to sponsor the project, or could not give services to the project (eg free hosting or whatever) as they don't provide it!

 

That is a valid point.

 

The donations system takes care of this partly though.

 

There is a donations page on the site for the project team members, and those that contribute are welcome to add their donation links in their packages.

 

What does that say about the company who is breaking the forum rules?

I agree 100%. I had a post edited the other day, as I wasn't thinking and asked people to PM me if interested. My bad, genuine error - I've not spammed before, now I'm a bad person ;)

 

It happens. Either the user accepts it or continues on "spamming". 99% of the time the users accept it.

 

But taking this the logical step further - many companies/individuals in here have also never spammed the forums or inboxes, and are not here to make a quick buck...the difference is that Pair have sponsored the project.  But where are they when a user needs help on the Forum ?  Do they contribute to the *community* - of course not, they are out to make a $/?/Eur or two.

 

I think they hosting a dedicated server for the project has done a lot for the community, otherwise the forums would not be available or be able to handle the traffic (for a while the forums locked the whole server making it completely unavailable).

 

Sure, they don't answer questions, nor do I refer people to use them publicly or privately (PM), but they offer a service that I personally feel secure with, and so should any online store owner.

 

Actually I wasn't thinking of those pages, more the example shops!

 

Well, osCommerce is used to sell goods over the internet :D

[loxly]

live shops is an area for people to:

a) get ideas

B) see what osc can do

c) show off what they have been able to achieve with osc

d) let us find places to shop that support the community if we so choose

 

It is not part of the forum.

 

Possible solutions to consider:

 

Paid area on the site apart from the forum for people to purchase advertising for osc specific hosting and programming services, installation services, etc.

 

New section on the forum for "services needed" requests to keep them out of the general discussion areas and to keep them from scrolling off the page so quickly that they are not seen. This section would need to be near the top of the forums list else people will not see it and will post in General Comments anyway :)

[rthrash]

Would it benefit the community for someone to sponsor a "Commercial" OSC forum, with ratings for service providers, polls, etc. for those who are trying to make a buck off of offering support / hosting / development / customization / whatever for osCommerce?

 

Equally important, would it offend the OSC developers and contributors?

 

Some potential benefits:

 

[1] allow this thread to close down :wink:--no more need to discuss spamming the board/private spam message or what is altruism vs. commercialism. It would also give the team members/moderators a quick URL where they could direct "violators"

 

[2] provide a commercial outlet for those who desire one--some folks want the (sometimes simply perceived, sometimes actually real) security of "commercially supported" software/solutions/modification

 

[3] allow this forum to stay on its intended topic of support/development

 

If there's a legitimate need/desire/benefit/blessing by the core team, including Harald, I would probably be willing to donate some space and bandwidth to the situation... If this was given a go, I would need active volunteers from this communtiy to help moderate the board.

[Guest]

very eloquently (sp) put Deborah.

 

Burt and Hpld should become the new point/counterpoint team on 60 Minutes :) put their posts together and you have a fairly complete, point by point explanation.

 

The community is here to benefit the community.

 

I would suggest anyone that wants to 'sell' their services to the community should create their own sites, get the listed in search engines, make sure they are listed in the live shops area, and let people find them as needed...

 

another 3 cents from here.......

[alonsoac]

Why can't these companies sponsor the project?

 

When a business sponsors the project, people will know they are serious in their services - which is at the level of where trust begins.

 

In my case my company probably can't sponsor the project because it is a micro-bussiness runing out of a 3rd world country. But I am serious about my services and very serious about keeping my clients happy. You can't compare me to Pair networks or some other sponsor though.

 

Yes, instead we will have posts like "Is Company A better than B, C, D, or E?"

 

What would be wrong with that?. I would say that a discussion like that would be enlightning to the community and a debate would show what those companies are really made off and up to.

[loxly]

c]

Yes, instead we will have posts like "Is Company A better than B, C, D, or E?"

 

What would be wrong with that?. I would say that a discussion like that would be enlightning to the community and a debate would show what those companies are really made off and up to.

 

There are legal and ethical issues surrounding discussions of this nature. Not all people are objective and honest about their dealings and relationships with various companies.

 

Also, I would reiterate, although such discussion may be helpful and warrented, *this forum* on *this server* is not where they belong. Paid advertising should be paid advertising and should be somewhere assessible, but not in the *help* forums.

 

In case everyone missed it, this forum is for the support and discussion of the development of a specific software package and using that software to the best of it's capacity. When contributions are posted, they are posted free for download and usually have a donations link somewhere. There are donations links on the Team page, making this a *Try before you buy" type of product. Are you willing to customize your product to work with osC, offer it as a free contribution and count on getting paid if your product works and helps someone else make the money they need to be able to make a monetary contribution back to you? If not, then participate in the discussions relavent to developing your store, post it to Live Shops when it is finished, but please don't use this community to sell stuff to us. Most of us are not new to online shopping, online searching and, as I said before, many of us have done a lot of research and used other products prior to deciding to put the time and effort into osC.

 

And this is not directed at one person, not directed at the person who started the thread, but directed to a variety of people that think they should be able to use this forum for whatever thay want, just because they found a community of people they think need their particular service.

 

I'll be quiet now, I will start to repeat myself more and more, which is redundant, but it seems some people just don't get the meaning of sites, forums, user groups, mailing lists, etc that have a SPECIFIC purpose, they always think that if they want to do something somewhere they should baable to do it, no matter who's resources they are using.

[Guest]

there are more than enough people on the forums that explicitly ask for programmers/paid help requested - why cant you just read the forums on a daily basis and PM those people if you feel you can do what they are asking for. In reading the forums today (which i do a couple of times daily) I saw people asking for help which they would pay for.

 

you have to remember that probably 95% or higher of the people here are 'micro businesses' and we are all trying to make our sites as great as they can be.

 

If I am going to spend money, I am going to continue sending small donation to the core team and others than have made multiple contributions to the project. I have made a couple of contributions and helped plenty of people with problems, but for me it a matter of giving something back to the project.

 

 

What would be wrong with that?. I would say that a discussion like that would be enlightning to the community and a debate would show what those companies are really made off and up to.

 

IMHO generally those types of discussions turn into feeding frenzies and rather than providing any real information, its just a 'he said/she said' type of conversation with 'engineers' pointing fingers at other programmers because they feel they can do it better.

 

While what I am about to say in sort of contradictory, these are support forums, not debate forums (even tho we seem to be in a debate here... :wink: )

[Harald Ponce de Leon]

If there's a legitimate need/desire/benefit/blessing by the core team, including Harald, I would probably be willing to donate some space and bandwidth to the situation

 

If anything of this scale occurs, it will more than likely be under our control.

[Harald Ponce de Leon]

But I am serious about my services and very serious about keeping my clients happy.

 

You corrected Linda of "spamming" 8 or 9 times rather than 27.

 

8 or 9 times is 7 or 8 too many. Actually, its 8 or 9 too many.

 

Now, since you're interested in debating, why break the forum rules 8 or 9 times?

 

Since you didnt follow our "policy", does that mean I don't have to follow yours if I were one of your customers?

[alonsoac]

8 or 9 times is 7 or 8 too many. Actually, its 8 or 9 too many.

 

Since you didnt follow our "policy", does that mean I don't have to follow yours if I were one of your customers?

 

Harald that comment was a joke. I posted one spam post, the others were replies to people who had solicited the services I provide. All posts where againts the rules but only one was spam. I did apologize for breaking the rules, I didn't do it on purpose, I wasn't aware at the time I was doing something wrong.

 

But that has nothing to do with how I handle my clients. The comparison is not fair, I made a mistake here yesterday, big deal.

[Harald Ponce de Leon]

But that has nothing to do with how I handle my clients. The comparison is not fair, I made a mistake here yesterday, big deal.

 

The reason why I posted such a harsh question was due to your interest in companies debating over each other.

 

If my question was too hot under the collar to answer, then I don't see the system of companies debating over each other working.

 

You PM'd me saying all I see are the errors you make and not the contributions you've made. Unfortunately, on my side that is true as I have not looked at any contributions nor spend all my time in the forums. But, doing "good" gestures (helping, contributing, donating, ..) does not buy you a ticket to do "bad" gestures. One company tried that and what was the result? They were banned (multiple times), their contributions were removed, and their donations were refunded.

 

You are not the first to make a mistake, and you will not be the last. You've apologized which is great, and hope to still see you around in the future - afterall participating was (and hope still is) one of your main interests in joining the community.

[Guest]

alonsoac

 

We don't want to look through this stuff. When I come here I want OSC answers, or I want to offer them. If you want to advertise put a URL in your sig and be done.