Who decides what is Default on OSC?

HLT · February 12, 2003

There seem to be a lot of default settings in this software that don't make sense. I realize everything is customizable, but Im curious who'se responsible for deciding what is default.

* Delivered should say "Shipped" by default, the original poster is correct. When would any of us be tracking the actual delivery? Probably never. So why does it say Delivered?

* There are other things like ... the default setting for the store is to add tax to the price of the product. So if a product is $10, it actually displays as $11.50 if tax is turned on. Tax is *never* added to a product until you reach the checkout screen. There may be an exception or two, but why would this be the default?

* Adding something to your cart, the image says "In Cart". Shouldn't it say "Add to Cart" ? Its not in your cart until you add it.

* the person's city and state by default. Im probably just a dumb american, but even on European online stores, in the 10 yrs Ive been purchasing on the web, zip code has always been the last item you enter on your address. This should be the default.

* If you add variables to an item, the store by default literally reorders the list to a random order of its own. No matter what order you enter them in, it changes it. If you want alphabetical, you can't. If you at least want them to appear in the order you entered them, you can't. The default for this feature is intentional randomness. Why would this be the default? Wouldn't it make more sense to at least list them in the order entered?

These are just a few things that have frustrated me. Normally I wouldn't complain but whomever is in charge of deciding what is the "default" setting has cost me quite a bit of money to have to pay developers to change. The frustrating part is that I really don't even consider them "customizations". To me these items seem like bad choices for default settings, and spending cash to change them to what I consider "normal" is really a bummer. More importantly, when you modify code, you increase the risk of introducing bugs, and that very thing has happened over and over as a result. I'd trust you guys to change the default more than I'd trust my own programmers to "customize" it.

Don't misunderstand me, this store is the best out there, and im sure developing for it is a very thankless job. So thank you for all your hard work. Even the best store out there can be perfected though.. so I hope you'll take these comments in a good spirit.

HLT

February 13, 2003

I agree with everything you said, but didn't take it so seriously, as I found them easy to change.

The one that really doesn't make sense to me is the one about the Zip Code... also took me a while to find out where to change it :shock:

HLT · February 13, 2003

True. Not being a programmer though, every silly change costs me a minimum of $50, so I reeeeeeeeealy dislike having to change common sense things. At least the "Shipped" / "Delivered" thing is changeable from the admin.

HLT · February 13, 2003

"If you add variables to an item..."

Sorry, that should read "attributes"

HLT · February 13, 2003

Another issue:

By default the store admin section isn't password protected. Its open for the world to see. Why would this be the chosen default set up?

February 13, 2003

Guys,

I think you need to take into account that most of the developer are NOT Americans, in fact I'd wager that most of the users are not in the US. The translations are not always perfect....So, my point is quit 'yer bitchin' and just fix it the way you want.

greree · February 13, 2003

True. Not being a programmer though, every silly change costs me a minimum of $50, so I reeeeeeeeealy dislike having to change common sense things.

It's not really programming. It's more like typing. Most of the changes you mentioned are simple. You might want to start posting your questions in this forum and see if someone can give you step by step instructions on how to make the changes. When I first started working with osCommerce I didn't like the way the address fields were arranged, so I asked questions and looked through the contributions until I figured it out.

There are also other forums that deal with PHP and MySQL. I've cut and pasted code from osCommerce and asked questions in these forums, and for the most part I got help.

* This one really gets to me: The registration screen has the zip code above the person's city and state by default. Im probably just a dumb american, but even on European online stores, in the 10 yrs Ive been purchasing on the web, zip code has always been the last item you enter on your address. This should be the default.

The address is set up to be the standard format for Germany. So who do we know that lives in Germany?

There's a contribution called "United States Format" that will help you change the address fields. You might want to take a look at it.

loxly · February 13, 2003

I'd venture to say that most php applications I have seen, whether they are for ecoomerce or not, are based on European standards and were not originally written in English. If you want the flexibility and freedom that comes with using this and other software packages like it. I would suggest taking some time to learn the basics of php. It is not that difficult if you are used to coding html. However if you have only used prepackaged software and never seen code, then you have a longer learning curve.

And if you are paying $50 each for the simple changes you are talking about, you really need to email some of the people on this forum, spend your money where people know the software, not developers that are out for your cash only.

Just my opinion of course, but I have learned a heck of a lot by diving into this software. Not only about the software either, but about design and ecommerce in general. And it helps me to hear from folks in other countries, because my site attracts international visitors and I plan to expand to be able to offer products and services for them as well as my US based customers.

Debbie

sojomy · February 13, 2003

Normally I wouldn't complain but whomever is in charge of deciding what is the "default" setting has cost me quite a bit of money to have to pay developers to change.

Is that the same money that you saved by using a "free" catalog? :)

And loxly, who's the girl in your avatar? She's hot!

loxly · February 13, 2003

:lol: She was one of the 2 you can pick from when you look at the files available. I could look like that, after all I am in NY and it is the city that creates illusions :lol:

I'll post the real me eventually!

Also, HairLossTalk, one man's default is another man's headache. And vice versa. So what you want to be the official defaults are no more logical for the user base than the ones that are already there.

deb

greree · February 13, 2003

Oh, one more thing.

By default the store admin section isn't password protected. Its open for the world to see. Why would this be the chosen default set up?

Maybe because if the security system for your cart was standardized and available as source code, it would give hackers an idea as to how to break into it. Leaving security the responsibility of the cart owner means a hacker can't be sure how it's set up.

loxly · February 13, 2003

Yeah, I meant to comment on that too. There are instructions included telling you how to protect and suggesting that you do right away.

deb

HLT · February 13, 2003

I expected most of the replies I got, and I appreciate that nobody was outright angry or mean. :) I saw another guy asking for more frequent releases and he got a new A-Hole ripped for it! :lol:

... but at the same time, I must reply with a friendly retort ...

Its a valid point to say "You can change it". Thats why I made that point myself in my original post, hopefully to dissuade anyone from harping on that issue. Just because something is changeable by the end user doesn't necessarily mean it should be left in the snapshots.

The listed items are things many people feel are completely a mystery - ie - nobody has any idea why the store defaults are set like this. They're not just a couple minor issues. My programmer got really irritated when I told him to reorder the address boxes and it did take him a decent amount of time.

The handful of store owners I know are most frustrated because they know anytime they want to upgrade to the latest snapshot, they know its going to involve at least a day of modifying a bunch of code... just to fix some of these really odd default settings that we all agree, nobody uses in their current form.

I'd have to agree to disagree with you that the items I mentioned are just one mans default and another mans headache. These items are pretty out there.

I was actually hoping that someone who disagreed with me would give me at least some examples where these defaults were commonly used. If its one man's default and another man's headache, show me whose default these are, and why they would want them this way? Show me someone who likes entering their attributes and having them mysteriously reordered by the store. Show me a scenario where the product price should have the tax added to it, and tell me why most people use it this way. As for setting a login script - every single program I have ever used (including this bulletin board PHPBB which I use on our site) has an established password protected admin section. That is standard. Show me an example where this is not used.

If you can do that for me, then I could re-look at each item and say "hmm, okay maybe this is the most common way to do it, therefore the most logical."

Unfortunately nobody did.

The philosophy here is that the best default is the most commonly needed setting. I believe with open source software that this is a universal truth. That was my premise, and why I stand by it right now on these specific issues. They should be modified in the standard version of the software. Thank you in advance for not taking this negatively. I enjoy a lively discussion. :)

HLT

Ajeh · February 13, 2003

You could also ask someone to write you a setup for easier customization of your code so that you do not have a hard time adding in changes.

Most changes/updates do not require a degree in rocket science to apply ... :D

Often times, it's because everyone thinks you have to start from ground zero when in reality, just using the right tools and toys and updating just changed files is a quick, fast few minutes to an hour operation.

loxly · February 13, 2003

If you read through the forums you WILL find posts that certain countries need the tax included in the price, and that all the other defaults are widely used. It isn't my responsibility to go find them all.

If your developers are true developers they should be able to follow the changes in the CVS to know which files need to be changed on an upgrade or not changed at all.

And if they keep track of the changes the first time they make them it should be much easier to make them to subsequent snapshots.

I think you are being "taken for a ride" by the people you are paying to write your changes.

It has been pointed out that the changes are not that difficult and those of us that came upon this software not long ago have been able to learn how to do them. If you want to save $$$ you can learn too.

Where can you go and make a software company change the defaults of a distribution package to fit your needs??

That is like someone asking that we should be able to vote on what gets included by the developers. This is software development, not a democracy. We can offer SUGGESTIONS, we should not expect that because this package does not work the way someone wants it to (it works fine for the majority it seems) that changes should automatically be made to accomodate them. If the team agrees the suggestions have merit, they can CHOOSE to include them in the next release. This group of developers seems to have listened quite a bit to lots of users and have implemented a large number of changes requested by the community that has been built.

If I understand Open Source you are free to take the code to your developers and let them make you a custom shop and do what you want with it. And if your code works, you are under no obligation to upgrade to a newer snapshot or to MS1.

Good luck finding something better with anywhere near as much support. And browsing through the contributions section can be extremely educational, a lot of the things you want are available in there. Some are easy to implement, some are a little tougher.

Debbie

burt · February 13, 2003

My programmer got really irritated when I told him to reorder the address boxes and it did take him a decent amount of time.

Simple HTML change, should take no longer than 5 minutes. You need a new "programmer".

The handful of store owners I know are most frustrated because they know anytime they want to upgrade to the latest snapshot, they know its going to involve at least a day of modifying a bunch of code...

CVS...

just to fix some of these really odd default settings that we all agree, nobody uses in their current form.

I assume you mean "we all" as the "handful of store owners"...which is hardly representative of the user base of Osc.

As for setting a login script - every single program I have ever used (including this bulletin board PHPBB which I use on our site) has an established password protected admin section. That is standard. Show me an example where this is not used.

htaccess / htpasswd. Does not work on every server, why should a Shopping Cart software be responsible for your sites security ? As soon as someone hacks it, you'll be here whining about how hackers got your customers details and your business failed blah blah blah.

Security is the responsibility of the Site owner, not the software maker - and especially so when the software could contain very important details like CC numbers etc etc.

If you can do that for me, then I could re-look at each item and say "hmm, okay maybe this is the most common way to do it, therefore the most logical."

Most common != logical.

The philosophy here is that the best default is the most commonly needed setting. I believe with open source software that this is a universal truth. That was my premise, and why I stand by it right now on these specific issues. They should be modified in the standard version of the software. Thank you in advance for not taking this negatively. I enjoy a lively discussion. :)

The software is (IMO) fine as is. It installs in 15 minutes for even the greenest person. Then that person should at least learn the basics of Osc in order to make the changes.

I don't believe that Osc should be the bells and whistles solution - IMO it's going down a rocky road by making it too easy to install and configure. This will lead to people not learning and simply coming onto these forums asking for help and advice when they've not even tried to amend things themselves. The knowledgable userbase will ignore them or flame them - we've already seen it happen...

All of the things you mention in your the first message in this thread are easily achievable, and it does not take much to do them.

* Delivered should say "Shipped" by default, the original poster is correct. When would any of us be tracking the actual delivery? Probably never. So why does it say Delivered?

30 seconds work, changable via Admin.

* There are other things like ... the default setting for the store is to add tax to the price of the product. So if a product is $10, it actually displays as $11.50 if tax is turned on. Tax is *never* added to a product until you reach the checkout screen. There may be an exception or two, but why would this be the default?

1 minutes work to change application_top.

* Adding something to your cart, the image says "In Cart". Shouldn't it say "Add to Cart" ? Its not in your cart until you add it.

2 minutes work to amend a graphic and upload

* This one really gets to me: The registration screen has the zip code above the person's city and state by default. Im probably just a dumb american, but even on European online stores, in the 10 yrs Ive been purchasing on the web, zip code has always been the last item you enter on your address. This should be the default.

5 minutes work, to shift a portion of HTML.

* If you add variables to an item, the store by default literally reorders the list to a random order of its own. No matter what order you enter them in, it changes it. If you want alphabetical, you can't. If you at least want them to appear in the order you entered them, you can't. The default for this feature is intentional randomness. Why would this be the default? Wouldn't it make more sense to at least list them in the order entered?

2 minutes work to amend the .sql

So, you could get all that changed in approximately 15 minutes ? Do you have the time to spend 15 minutes to set it the way you want it ?

Stop whining and start coding. ;) My 0.02

greree · February 13, 2003

The listed items are things many people feel are completely a mystery - ie - nobody has any idea why the store defaults are set like this. They're not just a couple minor issues. My programmer got really irritated when I told him to reorder the address boxes and it did take him a decent amount of time.

Your programmer got irritated because you asked him to program? The documentation on osCommerce at oscdox.com uses this proceedure to demonstrate configuration changes. It's very easy. All it involves is cutting and pasting clearly marked sections. You could literally go from never having heard of PHP to making the change yourself in half an hour. That's exactly what I did. I think you need to review your programmer's qualifications. Or is he getting paid by the hour?

I was actually hoping that someone who disagreed with me would give me at least some examples where these defaults were commonly used.

I did. The address fields are set up in the format used by Germany, where Harald Ponce de Leon lives. Spain has a similar format. I'm sure there are many others. Since the developers figured that people would change the order to match their home country anyway, it didn't matter what the default was, so they picked Germany. After all, this change is one of the easiest to make.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I think it would be better for you to learn a little PHP and HTML rather than trying to convince the developers to configure osCommerce to suit your needs. And if I were you I'd have a little talk with your programmer. A real programmer would be able to change the address fields in two minutes flat with NO code rewriting. It really is just moving sections around.

greree · February 13, 2003

OK, one more thing and this is it. I found a page called "International Mailing Address Formats". It's at http://www.bitboost.com/ref/international-...ss-formats.html I looked through it. Most of the address formats in the world have the zip code either before the state or before the city and state. So, according to your statement

The philosophy here is that the best default is the most commonly needed setting.

the address format is correct.

floridagal · February 13, 2003

HairlossTalk.com wrote:

My programmer got really irritated when I told him to reorder the address boxes and it did take him a decent amount of time.

Whew, this blew me away enough to bring me out of 'lurk' mode :P ...I've got to agree w/ other folks on this one -- your 'programmer' sounds like he's taking advantage of hourly pay or some such....

Before finding osCommerce, I'd never so much as looked at PHP code before -- but changing the order of the address fields took me maybe 20 minutes tops? And probably 10-15minutes of that time was spent checking-and-double-checking that I was working with the correct file since I was a bit nervous about tweaking *anything* to start with.... It was one of the very first changes I made to my script... and AFTER doing it, I finally read further in osdox, to see that they told how to do it step-by-step.... :oops: The fields are well-defined & it's just cut-n-paste --- no different than if you editted this message & moved my first paragraph below the second....

I honestly don't mean this as criticism :wink: - and I'm sure the others don't either -- but it's just a shame to see that someone *appears* to be misusing your trust in him just to make a bigger paycheck.... that particular change shouldn't take *anyone* more than a matter of moments... esp. not a professional programmer...

February 13, 2003

Most of these problems are already fixed or on the way.

See the workboard.

Item 36 Move Configuration Parameters To The Database - Done

Item 35 Sane Default Store Configuration

I think the current defaults come from whoever wrote that section of the code.

HLT · February 15, 2003

Thanks for the responses everyone, and thank you for not getting offended! Floridagal, wanna work for free for me too??? :lol:

HLT

July 3, 2003

I'd venture to say that most php applications I have seen, whether they are for ecoomerce or not, are based on European standards and were not originally written in English. If you want the flexibility and freedom that comes with using this and other software packages like it. I would suggest taking some time to learn the basics of php. It is not that difficult if you are used to coding html. However if you have only used prepackaged software and never seen code, then you have a longer learning curve.

And if you are paying $50 each for the simple changes you are talking about, you really need to email some of the people on this forum, spend your money where people know the software, not developers that are out for your cash only.

Just my opinion of course, but I have learned a heck of a lot by diving into this software. Not only about the software either, but about design and ecommerce in general. And it helps me to hear from folks in other countries, because my site attracts international visitors and I plan to expand to be able to offer products and services for them as well as my US based customers.

Debbie

Hi,

Well it seems it is just another sad assumption by my fellow Americans that the world revolves around our ways. But I love this program and I am enjoying learning how to make the changes to what I like. If you are paying $50 per change, then you might want to look into a new programmer who will not charge so much for so little.

JMHO

Kevin

Who decides what is Default on OSC?

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