Jump to content
  • Checkout
  • Login
  • Get in touch

osCommerce

The e-commerce.

osCommerce (il)legality question


Xerxes1942

Recommended Posts

Posted

I'm sure this has been discussed several times and i do apologize for (most probably) bringing back a topic that has been answered, but unfortunately i was unable to find a problem similar to my own.

 

Now, in a few words, i've hired a wed design/development company to work on a site for my own company. They have given me administrative access to a changed version of osCommerce which shows absolutely no banners, logos, copyrights or any other information that would hint this is osCommerce or an open source software. Actually, the only way i've found out, about that it is in fact osCommerce, was when i registered a fictive order from a fictive customer and tried to list an invoice/packing slip. It then displayed an osCommerce banner in the upper right corner...and then google led me here.

 

I would like to inquire in what way is this legal/illegal? Can he charge me for an open source software? Can i sue him for not telling me it was open source and for trying to sell it as his own software? Can os commerce sue him? I have no ideea where i stand and honestly it would be great if i could find grounds for a lawsuit and through that loophole get out of any dealings with him, since all i want is my money back now and perhaps look for a more serious and honest company.

 

All i've managed to find was "The osCommerce copyright announcement displayed on the Administration Tool of osCommerce Online Merchant complies with section 2c of the GNU General Public License (GPL) and thus can not be removed, or may only be appropriately modified with addtional copyright notices." Is this good enough? Please help me shed some light on what i can do...i must confess i'm totally in the dark and the whole open source rights thing is something i'm not familiar with at all.

 

Thank you.

 

P.S. I have screenshots of the administrative panel (the one i've been given access) Please tell me if posting those would help.

Posted

Xerxes1942

 

Has your web designer charged you for OS Commerce or the installation / setting up of OS Commerce? It might be worthwhile to check out what hes charging you for and read any smallprint that you have signed and agreed to with said company.

 

I am also working on behalf of a company using this software, but I am only charging for my time skinning the template and getting the initial products listed. I wouldn't dream of charging for a free software and the reason I ask you check is because it sounds a bit vague (and rather unethical).

 

Hope this helps.

Debbie Harrison

 

Posted
Can he charge me for an open source software?
Yes.

 

Can i sue him for not telling me it was open source and for trying to sell it as his own software?
No.

 

Can os commerce sue him?
No, though "osCommerce" (the entity) might want to contact him about copyright breaches.

 

Note that I am not a lawyer, so take the above as you see fit.

 

Read: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html

 

Especially Read: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html

Posted
No, though "osCommerce" (the entity) might want to contact him about copyright breaches.
I think copyright breaches does qualify for suing someone ;)

 

 

 

Can i sue him for not telling me it was open source and for trying to sell it as his own software?

No.

Maybe, depends on how he presented the software, lie to customers is a suable act...

 

As Burt said, I am not a lawyer, and consultation with one will make these issues more clear, now the real question I would be asking, given the developer has lied to you, would you not want to just cut your losses and move on as the act of suing and lawyers most likely will cost way more in the long run...

 

cheers,

peter

Peter McGrath

-----------------------------

See my Profile (click here) for more information and to contact me for professional osCommerce support that includes SEO development, custom development and security implementation

Posted

We've been here so many times, but here it goes again.

 

A "trademark" is a "mark" use in "trade", and so a trademark can only be claimed by someone/entity that has sold that product in trade. It cannot be claimed by someone who provides that product for free.

 

Copyrighting of the source code is a different animal entirely. In this instance it does appear that the copyright notice does appear within the admin panel. I also doubt that they have gone to the trouble of removing all copyright notices from the inside of each and every file.

 

David's complaint appears to be that he wants his mony back, but for what reason he thinks he is entitled to his money back he does not say.

 

If the company he employed has provided him with the product they contracted to provide then he has no redress - and no monies would be liable to him if there was a copyright violation (only to osCommerce).

 

Vger

Posted
A "trademark" is a "mark" use in "trade", and so a trademark can only be claimed by someone/entity that has sold that product in trade. It cannot be claimed by someone who provides that product for free.
Who is talking about trademarks here?

 

Copyrighting of the source code is a different animal entirely. In this instance it does appear that the copyright notice does appear within the admin panel. I also doubt that they have gone to the trouble of removing all copyright notices from the inside of each and every file.
Read more carefully, as posted from the initial thread starter:

 

They have given me administrative access to a changed version of osCommerce which shows absolutely no banners, logos, copyrights or any other information that would hint this is osCommerce or an open source software.
There is no copyright notice displayed.....

 

David's complaint appears to be that he wants his mony back, but for what reason he thinks he is entitled to his money back he does not say.
For being lied to, maybe he does not want to use an Open Source solution, and to be lied to and left with one, he has merit in suing the contractor....

 

If the company he employed has provided him with the product they contracted to provide then he has no redress - and no monies would be liable to him if there was a copyright violation (only to osCommerce).
See above, from what I read, the developer has stated he will his software to implement the cart system, and not that he will use a free open source solution, hense he has redress in that he was mislead/mis informed / lied to...

 

Peter M

Peter McGrath

-----------------------------

See my Profile (click here) for more information and to contact me for professional osCommerce support that includes SEO development, custom development and security implementation

Posted
There is no copyright notice displayed
The osCommerce copyright announcement displayed on the Administration Tool of osCommerce Online Merchant complies with section 2c of the GNU General Public License (GPL) and thus can not be removed, or may only be appropriately modified with addtional copyright notices.

 

So what's that then? Swiss cheese? There's no requirement to absolutely plaster every page with copyright notices, and as I said I doubt if the copyright notices contained within the files themselves have been tampered with. You have to be really dedicated (or medicated) to remove copyright notices from around 1000 pages.

 

The only reason I've jumped in here is because it appears from the comments made as if the work has been done and the poster just wants to find some hook to get their money back. I don't see any complaint about the functionality of the cart itself.

 

If the cart doesn't work then that's another matter entirely.

 

Vger

Posted
The osCommerce copyright announcement displayed on the Administration Tool of osCommerce Online Merchant complies with section 2c of the GNU General Public License (GPL) and thus can not be removed, or may only be appropriately modified with additional copyright notices.
This is not put in the admin section, rather it is posted here at the web site, and I am sure is what is referred to.

 

for your referral http://www.oscommerce.com/about/copyright

 

 

In the actual files themselves, it is posted as a comment only and is not displayed.

 

So what's that then? Swiss cheese? There's no requirement to absolutely plaster every page with copyright notices, and as I said I doubt if the copyright notices contained within the files themselves have been tampered with. You have to be really dedicated (or medicated) to remove copyright notices from around 1000 pages.
Yes there is a requirement to plaster as you call it the copyright notice in the admin section as is currently seen in the admin release. The changing of the source files, he has not even stated he has access to them, only that he has access to the administration. So you are assuming that the copyrights are there as well....

 

The only reason I've jumped in here is because it appears from the comments made as if the work has been done and the poster just wants to find some hook to get their money back. I don't see any complaint about the functionality of the cart itself.
Well, that is your assumption, and like I already stated not being forth right with the use of the Open Source and then removal of the copyrights is a valid complaint. And your jumping in, feel free, just get your facts straight.

 

Peter M

Peter McGrath

-----------------------------

See my Profile (click here) for more information and to contact me for professional osCommerce support that includes SEO development, custom development and security implementation

Posted
just get your facts straight

 

Well, anyone who has read this forum knows that the only "straight facts" that you agree with are those defined by yourself.

 

Anything and anyone else has to be wrong by the very fact that you don't agree with it/them.

 

In all my time here the only interesting comments of yours that I have found are the platitudes contained in your signature.

 

Vger

Posted
Well, anyone who has read this forum knows that the only "straight facts" that you agree with are those defined by yourself.

 

Anything and anyone else has to be wrong by the very fact that you don't agree with it/them.

 

In all my time here the only interesting comments of yours that I have found are the platitudes contained in your signature.

Glad you can read my signature....I think some of the comments are directly related to people who assume things and make replies on THEIR assumptions and NOT facts....

 

I sure wish some people would read first then reply thoughtfully rather then with what their ideas are and expect everyone to complacently accept them for truth...

 

You seem to want to post whatever you feel is truth and get mad when someone says otherwise, then look to attack them on an opinion level rather then logically or with facts....

 

Like I said, get your facts straight and then post..

 

Peter

Peter McGrath

-----------------------------

See my Profile (click here) for more information and to contact me for professional osCommerce support that includes SEO development, custom development and security implementation

Posted

Dear all,

Thank you very much for the input.

 

As many of you have stated above i think discussing this with a lawyer would be the next step, but i wanted to make a small inquiry of where i stand.

 

As cannuck1964 has stated i do not wish to use an open source solution, or something that i could have mostly implemented myself (with the help of tutorials and this board). Even so, if the company i chose had been honest and explained the way they will tackle my website development i might have accepted nevertheless. But i feel cheated and misleaded since it is obvious they have tried to present osCommerce as their own software and YES they have gone through the painstaking process of removing every single banner and notification from all the pages i have access to, except invoice and packing slip.

 

Now i take into consideration that i'm going to rely on this company for frequent updates, optimization and so many other things (since i'm interested in a contract of collaboration) and since square 1 they have been deceitful. This is how i see things and i apologize if people don't agree with me, but in all my business practices i try to be as honest as possible and do not take kindly when i do not receive the same treatment

 

So what's that then? Swiss cheese? There's no requirement to absolutely plaster every page with copyright notices, and as I said I doubt if the copyright notices contained within the files themselves have been tampered with. You have to be really dedicated (or medicated) to remove copyright notices from around 1000 pages.The only reason I've jumped in here is because it appears from the comments made as if the work has been done and the poster just wants to find some hook to get their money back. I don't see any complaint about the functionality of the cart itself.

If the cart doesn't work then that's another matter entirely.

Vger

 

Indeed vger, you are right, some of the work has been done (an initial layout and the cart system in place, but many other complicated things i have requsted have been mysteriously delayed) and i am interested in getting all or at least some of my money back since i'm totally dissatisfied with the product so far and with the way they have handled things. Also, i copy pasted "The osCommerce copyright announcement displayed on the Administration Tool of osCommerce Online Merchant complies with section 2c of the GNU General Public License (GPL) and thus can not be removed, or may only be appropriately modified with addtional copyright notices" because this is the thing that bothers me most and all these problems could have been avoided from day 1 if they have kept the first page of the administration panel as the GPL requires.

 

In this instance it does appear that the copyright notice does appear within the admin panel. I also doubt that they have gone to the trouble of removing all copyright notices from the inside of each and every file.

 

The copyright notice and banners do not appear anywhere, except only a banner in the invoice/packing slip page. All the osCommerce banners/copyrights have been replaced by putting their own banners over the original ones and copyright has been changed to copyright@"my company name"

 

as your web designer charged you for OS Commerce or the installation / setting up of OS Commerce? It might be worthwhile to check out what hes charging you for and read any smallprint that you have signed and agreed to with said company.

In the contract he is charging for the initial set-up of the on-line store, which is separated into 2 sections client interface and administration panel each with different subsections. For the administration panel i have subsections like product administration, client administration, etc things which i think are default with the osCommerce software. Please correct me if i'm wrong.

Posted
because this is the thing that bothers me most and all these problems could have been avoided from day 1 if they have kept the first page of the administration panel as the GPL requires.
This bothers me as well, and the copyright notice is supposed to be displayed on ALL pages in the administration tool, and not just the first page.

 

The above posting about the copyright not needed on every page is incorrect, it is required on all pages in the administration tool set.

 

The front side cart pages, this is not mandatory (and is now not even added to it), but the powered by is still seen there (but is not mandatory). Refer to the link I posted above for more clear information on this topic

 

I have been at this a long time and it still pisses me off when "developers" lay claim to the work and try to pass it off as their own work and can not acknowledge the hard work put forth by others.

 

The displaying of the copyright in the admin is just a way of showing end users (not potential customers) what they are making their money with...

 

 

cheers,

Peter McGrath

-----------------------------

See my Profile (click here) for more information and to contact me for professional osCommerce support that includes SEO development, custom development and security implementation

Posted
and it still pisses me off

 

 

Do you talk in front of your children like that? Or do you just think its "cool" to talk with a gutter mouth?

 

 

Margaret

Posted
Indeed vger, you are right, some of the work has been done (an initial layout and the cart system in place, but many other complicated things i have requsted have been mysteriously delayed) and i am interested in getting all or at least some of my money back since i'm totally dissatisfied with the product so far and with the way they have handled things.

 

It seems that you are having a bad experience with these people. Not all people/developers who claim to be able to do things with osCommerce, or a fork of osCommerce, are actually capable of doing so. Some "developers" even provide references of sites they have done, when in actual fact it's a lie and the sites weren't done by them at all.

 

No reputable developer will ask for the total cost of a project in advance, but may opt for someting like;

 

1. 20% in advance to confirm the work and book it into their schedule.

 

2. 40% upon sign-off of a custom design.

 

3. The final 40% upon completion of all of the work.

 

If you have paid all monies in advance of the work being completed then you are in a sticky situation.

 

Realistically, unless you paid thousands of pounds/dollars for this work, then there would be no financial benefit to yourself in trying to pursue this through the courts - as the initial costs would have to be borne by yourself with no guarantee of recouping them.

 

Even if a court did award you damages then it is unlikely, unless this is an established and reputable company, that you would actual see any damages awarded.

 

If the developer is in another country with lax contract laws then it would not even be worth starting a legal challenge.

 

We could discuss this for weeks, but the sad fact is that it looks like you've lost the monies you have paid out, with little likelyhood of recovering any of those monies.

 

Vger

Posted
We could discuss this for weeks, but the sad fact is that it looks like you've lost the monies you have paid out, with little likelyhood of recovering any of those monies.
If the monies paid were by credit card, then contact the CC company and issue a charge back for non delivery / non completion of goods, then it is left for the developer to fight to get the funds and puts the court challenge in his ball park...

 

Peter M

Peter McGrath

-----------------------------

See my Profile (click here) for more information and to contact me for professional osCommerce support that includes SEO development, custom development and security implementation

Posted
Do you talk in front of your children like that? Or do you just think its "cool" to talk with a gutter mouth?

Margaret

If it offended you, you should have edited the quote.

Posted
Realistically, unless you paid thousands of pounds/dollars for this work, then there would be no financial benefit to yourself in trying to pursue this through the courts - as the initial costs would have to be borne by yourself with no guarantee of recouping them.

 

That's what i was thinking too. There have been several mistakes on my part and i'm strongly considering to acknowledge this as a lesson learned and let the situation be as it is. All my questions have been answered and i thank you all for taking your time and passing your knowledge (especially cannuck1964 and Vger). I will try to work as much as possible with the current developer and see how much of the current mess i can salvage.

 

Once again thank you and best of luck to all of you.

 

P.S. I'll update the topic later on, as things progress, just to let you all know how i finally sorted everything out.

Posted

When I am contacted about creating an e-commerce solution for someone, I always state up front that to reduce costs, we can begin with osCommerce and build from there. If they sold it to you as a original shopping cart solution and charged you $10k for the development, I'd be angry as well.

 

However, assuming that they installed the software and contributions correctly, you should have the functionality that you originally paid for. You aren't required under the GPLv2 to release your code to anyone because of the manner that you're using it, so if that's one of your fears, you don't have to worry.

 

I have clients who do hundreds of orders a day using osCommerce and it has proven itself as a reliable e-commerce application. As long as that company did their job correctly and set you up with a working e-commerce website, there's really no reason you couldn't use it.

Please use the forums for support! I am happy to help you here, but I am unable to offer free technical support over instant messenger or e-mail.

  • 3 weeks later...
Posted
Do you talk in front of your children like that? Or do you just think its "cool" to talk with a gutter mouth?

Margaret

:thumbsup:

Posted
:thumbsup:

 

Just not to lose the perspective I think you can see that the support on OSC is first class even the differences of opinion on this issue help you to gain a better picture of where you actually stand. This is the strength behind OSC, the support and genuine interest in the different problems and solutions I can see no reason to change what you have got even if it is not what you thought you bought. There are many different paths to follow to reach the goal. See it positively there is no reason why you can not build a first class selling platform with osc the missing extras that you need are open source and for the install you will find enough developers if you do not want to do yourself. As regards sueing if it is not a western based firm forget it and save your money I live in Asia and it is nearly impossible to touch these guys.

I like to here the gut feeling and also the facts (Peter and Vger) so keep going

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...