Rights of company to refuse the refund if past due

[oaksenov]

Could somebody please advise me on following matter?

 

What are rights of company in following situation?

 

US corporation (a company) has a 7 day return and refund policy, customers have to get RMA number before returning anything. Company sold a sportswear to customer via its web site on November 15 and its dropship partner shipped the item and it was delivered to customer on 12/3. Customer contacted the company only almost a month after the delivery on January 2 saying that she just opened the package, and she was not satisfied with it and would like to return it for refund.

So after so much time since the sale the drop ship partner would not accept the return and customer was informed about that, but she shipped the item anyway to address of distribution center. Of course they did not receive anything. She was also about to open the dispute case with PayPal or with her Visa card. I read a lot of different stories about PayPal over here.

 

What are chances of company to win the dispute? And how should company employees behave in communications with that customers in order not to harm the company?

 

The issue is that customer contacted company very late by return policy and by common sense, it was longer than a month. Can customers actually demand a refund even after terms of refund policy? I have heard stories that often get money back via their Credit Card company and seller would have a charge back, but I also hear that customers legally obliged since they agreed with refund policy before the purchase.

 

Thank you

[radders]

Well I'm not sure of the legal side but the customer certainly ought to win and probably will. What kind of company wouldn't let the customer examine the goods after Christmas? They should at least change their drop ship partner.

[oaksenov]

Thank you for replying, Radders.

It is not about legal issues actually. It is more about how should company deal with customers who want refund after allowed by terms period. Regardins this case, It was no where near Christmas. She received it by December 3. But why do you think customer should win? What are return policies for then?

[radders]

Hi Oleg,

OK so it takes nearly three weeks to deliver the product. If the company screw up and don't deliver it on time then the customer has to order it from somewhere else so add another three weeks and they are lucky if it arrives by Christmas. I would certainly consider any delivery in December a potential Christmas present.

I suppose if the customer as agreed to the terms by ticking the box the company could say they are in the right but if you really did read everyone's terms and conditions you'd never find the time to buy anything. There should be a presumption that they are fair. I assume the item was either being made to order or ordered from overseas then yes these sort of problems are all too common and the main reason why I will only deliver to places within Europe.

[oaksenov]

Yeah it took a while, it is drop shipping business that there were Holidays in November, so we did not charge her shipping for this, but still the package was at customers hands on December 2 and she only decided to return it in 30 days after she received it.

By the common sense it is a long enough time to react. The refund period is kind of shorter than we are all used to, just 7 days, instead of usual 30, but it is driven by terms of dropship partner and it is stated on site.

Well even if it was not it is Virginia company and by Virginia law if there is no policy posted it is 20 days by default, so returning late is against all policies. Also getting RMA number was required. So customer did not do that either. She just mailed the package and it looks like she even mailed it to wrong address since we did not receive anything.

 

My question is really prompted by the number of messages here and on another forums that PayPal almost always takes side of buyer and posts charge back to seller. I just wonder if it is really the case.

[jhande]

The seller can win the case in case of a PayPal charge back if they can provide proof of delivery. That is one reason why I chose to send with "Signature Required". Also if the return policy is easily accessible and clearly defines the terms, that's another plus for the seller.

 

For the buyer to up and ship the item to who knows where without obtaining the required RMA is definately a no-no on the buyers part.

 

If the seller can provide such correspondence that went on with the buyer that explains it, that's another plus.

 

Good luck!

[Brucie]

In the UK, I believe the 7 days policy starts from when they receive the parcel not when you ship it off. Using a Signed For service is a no-brainer to be honest. For a little more, it adds a layer of protection for the seller and buyer.

[Guest]

From what I can see, the buyer has no patients and just went ahead and mailed the item.

 

I don't know of anyone or have heard of anyone ever just mailing something without contacting the supplier (seller) first.

 

I sell via pre-sales (Dropshipping) also and I have never had a problem like this. I have had very few returns but the ones I did have each contacted me first to ask what the procedure was. Simple common sense on the buyer's part.

 

What has happened to you is the buyer has told you it was shipped back, but you have not received it, nor has your dropship supplier. This tells me that the buyer is trying to scam you. It's very common and you need to watch out for it.

 

Ask the buyer for evidence of return mailing/shipping. If the buyer can not produce evidence then I would suggest they are just trying to get their money back and still keep the item. If they insist on challanging this and make a complaint with paypal then all you have to do is send paypal the address of your website where the return policy is and proof of signed delivery with the date. Any info you need about the delivery you can get from UPS, DHL, EMS (Which ever company it was shipped by) just give the tracking number and they will give whatever info you need. (Copy of signature)

 

Paypal should then settle in your favour. It could take a few weeks but I would not worry too much. PayPal can be A-Holes at the best of times but if you can show good strong evidence to back you up then they will judge in your favour.

 

And for anyone else, if you buyers say they have sent items back and you don't receive it, then they did not send them back and are just looking for freebies! Well, 99% of buyers anyway.

[oaksenov]

Thank you everybody for good suggestions.

This one was our first buyer like that. Right now she stopped communicating with us after I asked for UPS or FedEx tracking number to at least figure out for ourselves where she sent it to. So it looks like either she did not bother saving the number or as Eoin said was just hopping for freebies.

[Guest]

If she has quit communication then you can gather she was just looking for freebies.

 

There are people that actually make a living out of doing this sort of thing, especially on ebay.

 

Just be careful and always go by your policies, thats why you put them there, to protect you from things like this.

 

Not all buyer are like that, and you will over time get a few that will not go by the rules, but as long as they can produce the evidence to show they have shipped something back and the address they shipped to, then you can go easy on those ones.

 

Information is what will keep people from ripping you off!

 

Without information (evidence, paper-work), you don't have a leg to stand on.

 

Besides, who do you know that just sends things back without at least calling or emailing the supplier first!

I bet nobody!

[Guest]

Just be careful and always go by your policies, thats why you put them there, to protect you from things like this.

Reegular Merchant Accounts for card processors such as NOVA, PayChex, etc., actually make you apply for individual accounts per URL nowadays, and require a compliant Privacy Policy and Terms/Policy (transaction, shippimg, returns, etc.) to be posted on the website prior to approval for account.

 

PayPal does not, not even for their Pro level accounts, which is alarmingly singular, especially with all the programs being implemented by VISA and MasterCard (i.e. SecureCard). It makes you wonder somewhat, the self-importance PayPal/eBay has allowed to encumber "Best Practice" as a merchant, provider, or 'partner' for both businesses and individuals alike!

 

Staying within the parameters of PayPal being the approving processor, they too are bound by the stipulations of VISA and MasterCard - overall, and despite their arrogance - which detail the chargeback procedures and recourse available to both the customer and the seller. If you have a globally accessible (on your site, all pages) Privacy Policy and [Transactional] policy, even the suggestion to use a radio button to indicate "positive acknowledgement" from the customer that Terms are specifically agreed becomes moot, as caveat emptor (buyer beware) is the assumption, since every opportunity to provide the buyer with terms and policy that dirtectly affects the purchase they willingly enter into.

Providing a pre-requisite radio button "acceptance" of terms/policy does a lot more to affirm your proper posture to PayPal than anyone else, for they still have not satisfactorily merged their "rating system" with a fully compliantr and independent VISA/MC policy, so they are in fact forced to acknowledge that the seller has gone beyond "due diligence" and obligatory contracted VISA/MC terms by providing buyers with such an opportunity to abort the transaction (which, in fact, depends on agreement). This is the first wall of defense for the seller.

 

The second wall is the terms which clearly state the timeliness of RA requests, which are based on day/time of receipt of goods (the moment consumer liability begins and "title passes"): if terms are within 7 days, abrogating them for a single customer becomes impossible if you are to maintain your "contracted" obligations (to V/MC and the Processor that 'approved' the account based on them being published with minimal standards). Policy does not bend for Holidays, nor should they. However, you have the option (if not the habit) of posting special notices in payment areas to highlight this, as would any brick-and-mortar store: "Last Day For Christmas Exchanges & Returns Dec. 27 for Purchases Made As Gifts If Notation Made On Receipt" (and this might require a simple radio button on the Invoice). Even if special allowances are made, if the consumer does not elect them, or lets them expire, normal and published Policy regins. If in fact a consumer discovers that they needed to "protect" a purchase upon receipt, they too, are expected to do their due diligence by at least calling or contacting seller to note their record. If this effort is not demonstrated, then motives are questioned, as discussed in above posts.

 

The last wall is the very Policy chartered by V/MC in their "contract" with you (albeit extended by proxy by PayPal/eBay -- check out the successful claims made over their head!)...... timeliness is essential for a claim to be filed by the consumer if seen to be credible and valid, the essential to further processing. And, merchants have multiple means of responding with rebuttal directly to V/MC if satisfactory solutions are not met within your agreement with PayPal. Remember...PayPal/eBay is not the one who is the grantor of credit, they are merely the processing "agent" on your behalf.

 

I have lost more than $60,000 in the last 2 years to really slick credit card fraud (I mean really slick - so slick it was me that tipped off the issuing banks and the FBI!), and it is still an agonizing internal debate as to which processor to choose for which site, based on the type of merchandise, average sale, and exposure in general. PayPal with all their dubious quirks can actually serve your interests better than the formal V/MC relationships, but the key to any confidence and any assurance is that you truly understand the nature of your business and the minutia of conditions you have allowed to govern your operation thereof! ;)

[Guest]

Wow, 60,000!

 

I lost €20,000 using paypal, they completely closed me down as they have others. Of course, as paypal said to me, I agreed to their policies and conditions of using their service. I have since read all of their policies, terms and conditions and it took me the best part of 2 days!

Most of them contradict other policies, meaning they can fight you from every corner. But if it takes that long to read them, who is actually going to read them all, people just want to send and receive money! not spend days reading policies!

 

As Vasili said, when using some payment gateways and reprocessers they ask to see your policies and terms posted on the site where you will be using the gateway. Obviously each site/business will have different policies, but the main thing is to keep them as simple, straight forward and accessible on your site as possible, this way you can avoid confusion later on.

[Guest]

any chance you guys will reveal the average ticket range for your products, that have lost nearly $20,000+ with chargebacks and such?

 

i've felt a pinch year after year, but nothing amounting to that scale..

 

really slick credit card fraud (I mean really slick - so slick it was me that tipped off the issuing banks and the FBI!)

any chance you'll share what they ended up doing that got them caught? (so the rest of us lurking this topic know what to look out for) :)

[Guest]

There is not a huge amount to share.

 

I lost 20k because of paypal and how they operate. They said my business was too high risk and refunded allot of my buyers, even ones that I had items shipped to. Personal loss was in the region of 7,500. The total sales refunded by PayPal was almost 20k. After I complained to paypal a few times and asked them to 'call' me to discuss the matter (I wanted to know what was so high risk) and they replied telling me they will no longer discuss the matter and communication about the case will stop. In lane mans words, they told me to go f**k myself and they are God and can and will do what ever they want. check out paypalwarning.com

 

But when it comes to buyers, 99.9% will be good honest people, but the .1% will try and do you!

 

Some buyers will say that the goods are damaged on delivery.

 

* If shipping insurance was purchased then that will cover the damage. Except in some cases if the buyer signed the delivery note. By signing the delivery note you are saying that you accept the goods are in good condition.

 

Some buyers will claim that the goods are the wrong size or colour or something to that effect.

 

* In this case you need to ask the buyer to send back the goods, and to make sure they send them by UPS, DHL, Etc.. If they claim they have sent them and you have not received anything, you can be sure they did not send anything. Ask for a tracking number, maybe the delivery was send elsewhere and may well have been signed for by someone else.

 

* If they make a complaint with Paypal (Or other payment processor) they you have a little fight on your hands that can take a few weeks to settle. If you have evidence and the buyer does not, then you are more than likely going to win.

 

 

If a buyer claims to have received damaged or wrong goods, ask them to take a picture of the damage with a digital camera or even their camera phone and send them to you as proof of what the buyer is claiming the damage. If they refuse to do so, then there is a chance that the goods are fine.

 

What normally happens is these scammers claim to have sent something back to you and you send them the refund. Well, the goods are still sitting in the box on the floor of their living room. NEVER send a refund until you have received and inspected the goods. If the goods apear to be fine with no damage then send them back COD (Buyer pays for shipping on his/her end.

 

I will put together a sort of Do's and donts later, but now I have to feed my 1 year old baby boy. He has an appetite greater than mine!

 

What I wrote here is a bit messy because I am in a hurry to make some lunch but I will be back later today.

 

I suppose if anyone has had any bad experiences they should maybe email them to me or post them here and I can could do up some sort of website or forum that can deal with this type of thing and keep people informed of all the latest scams that are going on and maybe it can protect both buyers and sellers.

 

No harm in trying, is there? [email protected]