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osCommerce

The e-commerce.

Purchasing for Design and modifications


Wicht

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Hi,

 

I think i know the answers of my questions, but i want to be really sure before breaking any licenses ;)

 

So our (very) little Design-Company has a new customer for an eShop....So we had two alternatives. Programming it new from the base on, or look for a free shop and modify it (cheaper for the 'shopkeeper' and less work for us). This way i learned something about osCommerce and the GPL ( ;) )...

 

Now the Questions:

1. Can I purchase for the Design (the design we will make for the site)?

(in my opinion yes)

2. Can i purchase for modifications?

(also yes in my opinion)

3. Can i remove the Copyright on the sites you see (not in the source)

(yes, but that sucks, and i will be shamed....)

 

So, sorry for bothering you all, but thats some important questions for me...

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2. Can i purchase for modifications?

(also yes in my opinion)

 

I think too.

 

But when you distribute it to your client you cannot force him to sign an NDA or he/she/it cannot force to sign it too in order to force each other not to show the contents of those contributions.

 

You must explain (or not) to your client - and understand yourself - that everything made is bound to the osCommerce GPL license but you could keep it to yourself if, and only if, you don't distribute it.

 

I think since you are working directly to your client it's like if you where him. So in reality it's him who is doing the modifications through your professional expertize.

 

The original product developed belongs to him for it's own exclusive internal use. It's a matter of making a well made contract where you sell your work uppon the product and not the product it self.

 

Otherwise, if you keep the code to you and you are selling the final product packaged then you are distributing and you are obliged to give the sources without restrictions (besides GPL ones, of course), and you are obliged to explain this to your client too to avoid him to make any legal abuse.

 

So, if you or your client re-distribute the code you must include the code of your mods since they are obliged by GPL too. Then anyone could re-distribute it with out paying you a dime, for a price or free of charge.

 

Even anyone of their or yours employers.

 

-------------------------------

 

It will be more than nice if you share those modifications with others, since you have already earn with your original work, and they may be turned in something more of a general use or being useful to another gui.

 

You also get a major advantage using osCommerce Team work. Think about it :lol:

 

Best of lucks with it.

 

 

8) Lopo

If I helped you, you can help others too.

Search Affero Network. Thanks :)

--

moving mentalities >> fast forward

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I *love* telling a client that my work is covered by the GPL. It's such a good feeling when they smile and agree to it :D

"It's a damn poor mind that can only think of one way to spell a word."

-- Andrew Jackson

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I *love* telling a client that my work is covered by the GPL. It's such a good feeling when they smile and agree to it :D

 

Specially when they understand that it will cost then hugelly less :lol:

 

 

8) Lopo

If I helped you, you can help others too.

Search Affero Network. Thanks :)

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moving mentalities >> fast forward

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Hm, with your answer you brought up another question in my mind:

 

1. Whats a NDA? ;)

 

2. If i make modifications and then distribute it to my client (under the GPL) it's non of my business what he makes with the source. He can redistribute it, give it away for free or something else. Right?

 

3. If I distribute it to my client, I DON'T have to distribute it again, nor my client has. Right?

 

4. So the main question: Do I HAVE to distribute the code (like putting it Open Source for free (in this case free=no charge)) or can i distribute it only to this client and to noone else. (am I free in distribution decisions?)

 

(There will be only few modifications, not really hard ones, and most of them will be avaiable for all as contributions)

 

Thanks for the quick replies....but the GPL makes me a bit...dizzy ;)

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Hm, with your answer you brought up another question in my mind:

 

1. Whats a NDA? ;)

 

 

Non Disclosure Agreement: A Contract where one or more of the parties compromise not to disclose the source code or even the terms of the contract.

 

Lindows and others are using it for their "Beta" versions of GPLed software (hopping that this beta stuff ends one day soon) :twisted:

It's causing great discussion among the community and it's very fashionnable nowadays (although ilegal) :D

 

 

2. If i make modifications and then distribute it to my client (under the GPL) it's non of my business what he makes with the source. He can redistribute it, give it away for free or something else. Right?

 

Right. But you can also distribute to others besides this particulary client and any of those clients (or even friends or anyone that has a copy of it) could do the same or even modify the code, etc. etc.

 

3. If I distribute it to my client, I DON'T have to distribute it again, nor my client has. Right?

 

Yes.

 

4. So the main question: Do I HAVE to distribute the code (like putting it Open Source for free (in this case free=no charge)) or can i distribute it only to this client and to noone else. (am I free in distribution decisions?)

 

This I can't answer to you. We have a lot of discussion on this. Better ask Harald or the others from the Copyright Owners of osCommerce :oops:

 

I can only say that you don't have to distribute it for free. You could charge (don't be greedy) since you have expenses too.

Open Source Software doesn't mean giving it for free. See RedHat, Mandrake, SuSE and all the major Linux distros.

It means (more GPL than some of the others) giving it with the sources and allowing others to do the same or even modifying it to their suitable purposes and, if distributing, making the modification's code available too.

 

Get it? ;)

 

(There will be only few modifications, not really hard ones, and most of them will be avaiable for all as contributions)

 

Nice movement. We will all appreciate it for sure :D

 

Thanks for the quick replies....but the GPL makes me a bit...dizzy ;)

 

It makes us all too :lol:

 

When you are talking of software located at internet or software made with interpreted languages it's even harder to define what is "BINARY" and CODE... what is SELF USE and DISTRIBUTING :shock:

 

Good luck,

 

 

8) Lopo

If I helped you, you can help others too.

Search Affero Network. Thanks :)

--

moving mentalities >> fast forward

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Ok, one more time :D

 

The Thing that makes such a Shop unique, is IMO the Design. Reconstructing the layout, using other self-made graphics and so on.

And THIS (the design) doesn't apply to the GPL. Right?

 

The Graphics i make are mine or, if i sell them to my client with the shop, the client's. (Again) Right?

 

Maybe one of the osCommerce Copyright owners may answer my question 4 (see above)

 

Thanx alot...

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The Thing that makes such a Shop unique, is IMO the Design. Reconstructing the layout, using other self-made graphics and so on.

And THIS (the design) doesn't apply to the GPL. Right?

 

Rather difficult. The layout results from the output of the GPLed sources. So you modify the sources to get the layout you want. The changed sources are a derivative work and that derivative work is GPLed.

 

But the GPL doesn't force you to share your sources with anyone for free. It is your freedom to do that. It is also your customers freedom to keep or share the sources.

 

We (the developers of osCommerce) have chosen to use the freedom the GPL grants to give you and any third party all of our work for free. It would only be fair if you choose to do the same. Yet it is your decision, not ours. But if you choose to not distribute for free, rest assured the osC-community will not like that ;-)

 

What you are not allowed to do is change the license. GPL stays GPL. You cannot say "I have made a lot of changes to osCommerce, so now I use a different license". It will always be GPLed.

 

The Graphics i make are mine or, if i sell them to my client with the shop, the client's. (Again) Right?

 

Graphics are not covered by the GPL. Only sources.

 

HTH

You can't have everything. That's why trains have difficulty crossing oceans, and hippos did not adapt to fly. -- from the OpenBSD mailinglist.

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We (the developers of osCommerce) have chosen to use the freedom the GPL grants to give you and any third party all of our work for free. It would only be fair if you choose to do the same. Yet it is your decision, not ours. But if you choose to not distribute for free, rest assured the osC-community will not like that ;-)

 

I really only want money for the work i have to do to reconstruct the layout and design gfx's. Am i 'Evil Knevil' through making this???

 

I like your work very much....it's great stuff and I know that going public, in this case with the GPL, is hard and your heart bleeds when you see somebody making money with your 'sweat and blood'...

 

:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:

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The Thing that makes such a Shop unique, is IMO the Design. Reconstructing the layout, using other self-made graphics and so on.

And THIS (the design) doesn't apply to the GPL. Right?

 

Rather difficult. The layout results from the output of the GPLed sources. So you modify the sources to get the layout you want. The changed sources are a derivative work and that derivative work is GPLed.

 

So if I use an GPL'ed version of Adobe Acrobat to make a pdf then the pdf is GPL'ed too? I think not. Obviously if I change the sources of the GPL'ed version of Acrobat I can get it to output something that looks different, but that doesn't matter. The use and output of a GPL'ed program is not covered by the GPL, though the stock design and images are covered under copyright (as yours can be too).

"It's a damn poor mind that can only think of one way to spell a word."

-- Andrew Jackson

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Hello Wicht et al,

 

I guess you got me wrong. The output of the program is not covered by GPL - correct.

 

But Source code is covered by GPL. So when I have a line of source that looks like:

 

echo '<table><tr><td>All my stuff</td></tr></table>';

 

this line is covered by the GPL. The resulting output (a complete useless table) may not be covered by GPL.

 

As we currently do not use templates and the generation of the output is done by PHP the code used to generate the output IS covered by GPL.

 

But again - the GPL does not force you to give me all your sources. The GPL gives you the freedom to do so. The crucial thing is that the GPL will not restrict you from distributing your sources. All commercial licenses will.

 

And no - our heart does not blead when we see other people using osCommerce. It actually jumps in happiness ;-)

 

We would only like to encourage the osCommerce users to share their sources just as we do. That will make osCommerce grow. Hiding the sources or even selling them is not really the spirit of Open Source/Free Software.

 

The GPL gives you freedom. It does not take away anything. osCommerce is here to be used and modified. And we hope you will all share your sources with the community so that we can make osCommerce even better.

 

I hope I made my point clear.

You can't have everything. That's why trains have difficulty crossing oceans, and hippos did not adapt to fly. -- from the OpenBSD mailinglist.

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I forgot something...

 

The english Community seems far nicer than the german is....

Some of "our" guys are not very productive there...

 

oh, i forgot....

 

THX ALOT

 

(is that a kind of poetry? *FG*)

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The english Community seems far nicer than the german is....

Some of "our" guys are not very productive there...

 

Hrmpf. I am one of those running the german site. Am I really that rude over there? ;-)

 

Anyway - glad I could help.

You can't have everything. That's why trains have difficulty crossing oceans, and hippos did not adapt to fly. -- from the OpenBSD mailinglist.

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  • 2 weeks later...
The english Community seems far nicer than the german is....

Some of "our" guys are not very productive there...

 

Hrmpf. I am one of those running the german site. Am I really that rude over there? ;-)

 

Anyway - glad I could help.

 

And by the way... THIS IS THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY. :lol:

 

We speak *english* (sort of) 'cause we don't know how to speak Esperanto very well :roll:

 

8) Lopo

If I helped you, you can help others too.

Search Affero Network. Thanks :)

--

moving mentalities >> fast forward

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